Police detain 11 year of girl with a neurological disability
Discussion
TVR1 said:
Well, you're not exactly going to go into a detailed response, are you? Simply because you are a fantasist. With no education of the subject nor any experience in dealing with mentally disturbed individuals.
Unfortunately for you, the generally accepted procedure when a disturbed person turns violent is;
Protect yourself. (Restrain them)
Protect them from themselves. (Keep them restrained)
Call for help.
If no help forthcoming, keep them protected. (Keep them restrained)
In practice, that's how it is.
You are the worst kind of troller. Narcissism at its best. I see you buddy, so perhaps best leave it there.
TVR1. BA (Hons) Crim Just/Behavoural Phsycology. (Yep, I did Stuff before the car trade)
Saddened that a BA Hons graduate is so dismissive but my BSc (Hons) in Psychology covered that ground too. For those with an open mind and not apt to descend to name calling I recommend http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329820...Unfortunately for you, the generally accepted procedure when a disturbed person turns violent is;
Protect yourself. (Restrain them)
Protect them from themselves. (Keep them restrained)
Call for help.
If no help forthcoming, keep them protected. (Keep them restrained)
In practice, that's how it is.
You are the worst kind of troller. Narcissism at its best. I see you buddy, so perhaps best leave it there.
TVR1. BA (Hons) Crim Just/Behavoural Phsycology. (Yep, I did Stuff before the car trade)
It contains a lot of insights and information that TVR1 really should read.
Have not found any UK based articles as good yet but I have not been looking for long.
davidball said:
Saddened that a BA Hons graduate is so dismissive but my BSc (Hons) in Psychology covered that ground too. For those with an open mind and not apt to descend to name calling I recommend http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329820...
It contains a lot of insights and information that TVR1 really should read.
Have not found any UK based articles as good yet but I have not been looking for long.
David, just to satisfy my curiosity, have you passed the BPS requirements to qualify as a psychologist? These would be accredited first degree, relevant related field experience and accredited postgrad qualification.It contains a lot of insights and information that TVR1 really should read.
Have not found any UK based articles as good yet but I have not been looking for long.
davidball said:
TVR1 said:
Well, you're not exactly going to go into a detailed response, are you? Simply because you are a fantasist. With no education of the subject nor any experience in dealing with mentally disturbed individuals.
Unfortunately for you, the generally accepted procedure when a disturbed person turns violent is;
Protect yourself. (Restrain them)
Protect them from themselves. (Keep them restrained)
Call for help.
If no help forthcoming, keep them protected. (Keep them restrained)
In practice, that's how it is.
You are the worst kind of troller. Narcissism at its best. I see you buddy, so perhaps best leave it there.
TVR1. BA (Hons) Crim Just/Behavoural Phsycology. (Yep, I did Stuff before the car trade)
Saddened that a BA Hons graduate is so dismissive but my BSc (Hons) in Psychology covered that ground too. For those with an open mind and not apt to descend to name calling I recommend http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329820...Unfortunately for you, the generally accepted procedure when a disturbed person turns violent is;
Protect yourself. (Restrain them)
Protect them from themselves. (Keep them restrained)
Call for help.
If no help forthcoming, keep them protected. (Keep them restrained)
In practice, that's how it is.
You are the worst kind of troller. Narcissism at its best. I see you buddy, so perhaps best leave it there.
TVR1. BA (Hons) Crim Just/Behavoural Phsycology. (Yep, I did Stuff before the car trade)
It contains a lot of insights and information that TVR1 really should read.
Have not found any UK based articles as good yet but I have not been looking for long.
I've just made that procedure up BTW.
Mirror achievements and raise them?
Good try.
Edited by TVR1 on Wednesday 8th June 23:07
oh my.
seems to be a lot of six and one half stuff going on. none of us were there so we speculate. on that basis here's my tuppence.
can the officers here please stop complaining about delays in accessing MH services. yes, it's a shambles but a quick internet trawl (including on here) throws up many instances of "cops took twenty twelve days to respond to my crime report". so guess what, we're all a bit rubbish at some rapid responses, probably through no fault of our own.
this is a child. CAMHS services nationwide are poor. not sure why as this where the current money is going but it is what it is.
there are a number of schemes across the country being rolled out by adult MH services - 24 hr custody/liaison nurses, street triage etc but almost all are embryonic and are evolving to meet changing needs/demands. for an explanation of services available to children? - ask the CCGs; they are our paymasters and we tend to have to provide what they buy rather than what we would want to provide. i overspend by approx £20k per month on services to children despite being commissioned to provide services to adults of working age (psychological medicine in an acute trust environment - 600 bedded general hospital)
i saw a police recruitment ad on the back of a bus on my patch a few days ago. clearly stated that MH care is part of the job so can we disabuse ourselves of the notion that the force are "babysitting" patients. for sure, more and better training required but take that one up with the higher ups.
in my catchment area we have a joint protocol for the management of MH patients in the community. when i say joint what i mean is that the local force wrote it and then invited comment from health, social care, ambulance etc. i know this for an absolute fact - i was there. it worries me that, in my own area of responsibility, i have in the last 3 months had at least 5 officers request a copy of that protocol from me as they "haven't seen it". it went live mid 2015.
i'm really not sure, and frankly have no real interest, in the issues around restraint etc. officers do what they need to do and that's that. duty of care, protectionism etc - needs must. looking at the dates i know that there were no female beds available in the country at that time, which may account for the time spent in the cells. arguably, being in a cell is safer than being lost or out and about in the community but that's an issue way above my pay-grade and is systemic. just out of interest - are all commenting on this aware that the powers set out within Sec136 (for those eligible) are a preserved power of arrest so "destination cells" is compatible with the legislation? Sec 46 of the Children's Act could have provided an alternative - was this considered?
i feel for all involved in this scenario but would remind us all that, for every "bad" incident there are many good. i have many, many examples from my own experience with the local force where it has "gone right" and safe, effective and appropriate outcomes have been achieved. sometimes you lose the odd one and i do have a degree of faith remaining that lessons will be learned
paul
edit - for discussion and just thinking with my keyboard (quiet on-call, need something to do). use of police powers in the Children's Act may have prevented all this. Q?-what was the decision making process that lead to this child being in a cell rather than a hospital? i do not know but, i can envisage a situation where, a non-application of available powers could have inadvertently created this situation
seems to be a lot of six and one half stuff going on. none of us were there so we speculate. on that basis here's my tuppence.
can the officers here please stop complaining about delays in accessing MH services. yes, it's a shambles but a quick internet trawl (including on here) throws up many instances of "cops took twenty twelve days to respond to my crime report". so guess what, we're all a bit rubbish at some rapid responses, probably through no fault of our own.
this is a child. CAMHS services nationwide are poor. not sure why as this where the current money is going but it is what it is.
there are a number of schemes across the country being rolled out by adult MH services - 24 hr custody/liaison nurses, street triage etc but almost all are embryonic and are evolving to meet changing needs/demands. for an explanation of services available to children? - ask the CCGs; they are our paymasters and we tend to have to provide what they buy rather than what we would want to provide. i overspend by approx £20k per month on services to children despite being commissioned to provide services to adults of working age (psychological medicine in an acute trust environment - 600 bedded general hospital)
i saw a police recruitment ad on the back of a bus on my patch a few days ago. clearly stated that MH care is part of the job so can we disabuse ourselves of the notion that the force are "babysitting" patients. for sure, more and better training required but take that one up with the higher ups.
in my catchment area we have a joint protocol for the management of MH patients in the community. when i say joint what i mean is that the local force wrote it and then invited comment from health, social care, ambulance etc. i know this for an absolute fact - i was there. it worries me that, in my own area of responsibility, i have in the last 3 months had at least 5 officers request a copy of that protocol from me as they "haven't seen it". it went live mid 2015.
i'm really not sure, and frankly have no real interest, in the issues around restraint etc. officers do what they need to do and that's that. duty of care, protectionism etc - needs must. looking at the dates i know that there were no female beds available in the country at that time, which may account for the time spent in the cells. arguably, being in a cell is safer than being lost or out and about in the community but that's an issue way above my pay-grade and is systemic. just out of interest - are all commenting on this aware that the powers set out within Sec136 (for those eligible) are a preserved power of arrest so "destination cells" is compatible with the legislation? Sec 46 of the Children's Act could have provided an alternative - was this considered?
i feel for all involved in this scenario but would remind us all that, for every "bad" incident there are many good. i have many, many examples from my own experience with the local force where it has "gone right" and safe, effective and appropriate outcomes have been achieved. sometimes you lose the odd one and i do have a degree of faith remaining that lessons will be learned
paul
edit - for discussion and just thinking with my keyboard (quiet on-call, need something to do). use of police powers in the Children's Act may have prevented all this. Q?-what was the decision making process that lead to this child being in a cell rather than a hospital? i do not know but, i can envisage a situation where, a non-application of available powers could have inadvertently created this situation
Edited by paulmakin on Thursday 9th June 00:48
Edited by paulmakin on Thursday 9th June 01:01
Edited by paulmakin on Thursday 9th June 01:08
The child was in the cells as she was suspected of committing a crime.
The mother wasn't in the cells as she was not an appropriate adult as she was victim of those crimes.
The child was restrained as she was violent.
The child wore a mesh hood to stop her spitting at people.
The MH suites and hospital would have refused get as she was violent.
The child has no diagnoses for mental illness.
The IPCC recommendations centre on officers and staff not recording use of force. It does not criticise the force used, hence the words of advice outcomes for the officers.
Posters who think police can conjure up a mental assessment team in anything under 6 hours are deluded. And that's being conservative with time frames. I've had the PACE clock time out on offences waiting on assessment and been left holding someone for an assessment as the result of a crime that will be summonsed at best.
The mother wasn't in the cells as she was not an appropriate adult as she was victim of those crimes.
The child was restrained as she was violent.
The child wore a mesh hood to stop her spitting at people.
The MH suites and hospital would have refused get as she was violent.
The child has no diagnoses for mental illness.
The IPCC recommendations centre on officers and staff not recording use of force. It does not criticise the force used, hence the words of advice outcomes for the officers.
Posters who think police can conjure up a mental assessment team in anything under 6 hours are deluded. And that's being conservative with time frames. I've had the PACE clock time out on offences waiting on assessment and been left holding someone for an assessment as the result of a crime that will be summonsed at best.
davidball said:
Having spent some time studying and working with such patients as part of my psychology degree I can state with certainty that using such force on them is counter productive.
No doubt, but it's better than allowing them to harm themselves. Calling something 'torture', which clearly isn't, is foolish. Criticising the misconduct outcomes for something you have no idea about is also foolish. Mentioned something unrelated like Hillsborough also adds to that.
When you write such things you simply remove any credibility of weight to the rest of what you say, primarily because you don't really know what you're talking about.
davidball said:
I agree entirely. If my handicapped child was held by the police in such circumstances I would have a lawyer with me at the police station within the hour raising all kinds of hell.
I don't doubt that, however most parents would be more concerned with getting to and helping the child, not dropping off to get a lawyer involved first.davidball said:
Having spent some time studying and working with such patients as part of my psychology degree I can state with certainty that using such force on them is counter productive.
On the contrary I am sure it was productive in this case as it prevented the child harming itself or others, and despite frequent requests there is no advice from you with what you think the officers should have done to prevent the child harming itself or others.TVR1 said:
How did your BSc cover that? Not even going to bother responding to a report from 10 years ago. You can't even be bothered to Google properly?
I've just made that procedure up BTW.
Mirror achievements and raise them?
Good try.
I would say stick to the car trade but your use of TVR as an alias makes me question your judgement. TVRs are a collectors car. You drive along the road and then go back and collect the bits that have fallen off. Assuming the crappy electrics allow you to start them in the first place.
Still no one has pointed to any research more recent than the Richmond et al paper.
I've just made that procedure up BTW.
Mirror achievements and raise them?
Good try.
I would say stick to the car trade but your use of TVR as an alias makes me question your judgement. TVRs are a collectors car. You drive along the road and then go back and collect the bits that have fallen off. Assuming the crappy electrics allow you to start them in the first place.
Still no one has pointed to any research more recent than the Richmond et al paper.
Edited by TVR1 on Wednesday 8th June 23:07
David I've read this thread, I've also been around a violent young child. As a man I was afraid of the child and he was less than 12, must have been about the same age as this girl. He ruined the family home, putting holes in walls, ripping off doors etc.
I think you need to read what has been said and wind your neck in. Get some on job experience then I'm sure you'll come out of it with an entirely different view.
I think you need to read what has been said and wind your neck in. Get some on job experience then I'm sure you'll come out of it with an entirely different view.
XDA said:
rxe said:
One does wonder where the outraged mother was for this large number of hours.
If I had a mentally ill child who wasn't at home for the night, I'd be down the local cop shop sharpish. In fact, I probably would let the child out on its own if it was such a liability.
Does this answer your questions?If I had a mentally ill child who wasn't at home for the night, I'd be down the local cop shop sharpish. In fact, I probably would let the child out on its own if it was such a liability.
"Ms H also attacked the force for refusing to let her see her daughter in the police cells. I asked police officers again and again to let me see her but they kept telling me that I wasn’t needed."
"Ms H, to call the police after her daughter ran away from her in Horsham town centre and refused to come back."
"Child H again became distressed while out with her mother and ran into a road. Ms H telephoned the police for assistance."
"She was arrested on suspicion of assaulting her mother"
"Child H ran away from her mother’s house and was found by police officers in Horsham town centre."
"Child H ran away from her mother in Horsham town centre."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/08/ip...
No blame on the mothers part. The same cannot be said of the police though...
davidball said:
singlecoil said:
Well, I'm not surprised you would see it that way.
I am proud to speak up on behalf on the police whenever I see them being unfairly treated by know-it-all police hating types like you.
Your infantile insults are also of no consequence. As I told Elroy Blue. I firmly believe you can only be offended by the opinions of people you respect.I am proud to speak up on behalf on the police whenever I see them being unfairly treated by know-it-all police hating types like you.
Without knowing the facts, it's impossible to speculate as to whether or not the Police acted correctly in this case. However, I fully support Police use of restraints on any aggressive or violent individual, regardless of age or gender. The primary concern must always be to protect the officer.
If that person needs to be detained immediately and restraint is required to prevent them from harming themselves or the detaining officers (yes that includes spitting), then so be it.
David, I'm impressed you've stuck it out this far. You've had your arse handed to you on this thread and deservedly so. I know you are not fond of the police and are always excited by the opportunity to put the boot in, but you really chose the wrong topic this time.
Also, I'm bound to say that you really don't come across like a qualified and professional person in this context. Your mentions of torture and Hillsborough just don't fit. I'm almost embarrassed on your behalf, but not quite. Your opinion of the police is not so much one that you hold, it's one that holds you. Hopefully you will learn to calm down and adopt a more balanced attitude.
Also, I'm bound to say that you really don't come across like a qualified and professional person in this context. Your mentions of torture and Hillsborough just don't fit. I'm almost embarrassed on your behalf, but not quite. Your opinion of the police is not so much one that you hold, it's one that holds you. Hopefully you will learn to calm down and adopt a more balanced attitude.
mikeveal said:
The primary concern must always be to protect the officer.
The restraints protected the girl as well, perhaps more so. It is easy enough to restrain an individual if you have enough officers. It is difficult to restrain anyone safely when a number of officers are required. davidball said:
TVR1 said:
Well, you're not exactly going to go into a detailed response, are you? Simply because you are a fantasist. With no education of the subject nor any experience in dealing with mentally disturbed individuals.
Unfortunately for you, the generally accepted procedure when a disturbed person turns violent is;
Protect yourself. (Restrain them)
Protect them from themselves. (Keep them restrained)
Call for help.
If no help forthcoming, keep them protected. (Keep them restrained)
In practice, that's how it is.
You are the worst kind of troller. Narcissism at its best. I see you buddy, so perhaps best leave it there.
TVR1. BA (Hons) Crim Just/Behavoural Phsycology. (Yep, I did Stuff before the car trade)
Saddened that a BA Hons graduate is so dismissive but my BSc (Hons) in Psychology covered that ground too. For those with an open mind and not apt to descend to name calling I recommend http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329820...Unfortunately for you, the generally accepted procedure when a disturbed person turns violent is;
Protect yourself. (Restrain them)
Protect them from themselves. (Keep them restrained)
Call for help.
If no help forthcoming, keep them protected. (Keep them restrained)
In practice, that's how it is.
You are the worst kind of troller. Narcissism at its best. I see you buddy, so perhaps best leave it there.
TVR1. BA (Hons) Crim Just/Behavoural Phsycology. (Yep, I did Stuff before the car trade)
It contains a lot of insights and information that TVR1 really should read.
Have not found any UK based articles as good yet but I have not been looking for long.
J
David, we're still all waiting on your thoughts on how you would deal with a violent 11 year old girl. You've had hours to think about this, not the seconds afforded any officers who find themselves in the situation we're talking about, yet there's no response from you.
Either you need to give us your answer or you need to be man enough to say that you don't have an answer and therefore are not in a position to criticise the actions taken by the officers in this case.
You can't be outraged and label officers practitioners of torture and then ignore pertinent questions from serving officers. We may not be experts in mental health but we are experienced in dealing with violent people who have mental health issues. If someone can show me a better way of dealing with said people in a way which stops them hurting themselves or someone else, I'd love to hear it and subsequently implement it.
Either you need to give us your answer or you need to be man enough to say that you don't have an answer and therefore are not in a position to criticise the actions taken by the officers in this case.
You can't be outraged and label officers practitioners of torture and then ignore pertinent questions from serving officers. We may not be experts in mental health but we are experienced in dealing with violent people who have mental health issues. If someone can show me a better way of dealing with said people in a way which stops them hurting themselves or someone else, I'd love to hear it and subsequently implement it.
55palfers said:
Care in the community.
What happened to all the old "mental hospitals" I wonder?
A few derelict but mostly either demolished or sold off for other purposes.What happened to all the old "mental hospitals" I wonder?
http://thetimechamber.co.uk/beta/sites/asylums/asy...
Anyone who has read Bill Bryson's Notes from a Small Island will recall this one.
http://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/themes/subj...
paulmakin said:
i saw a police recruitment ad on the back of a bus on my patch a few days ago. clearly stated that MH care is part of the job so can we disabuse ourselves of the notion that the force are "babysitting" patients. for sure, more and better training required but take that one up with the higher ups.
Ah, so an advert makes it all right then. There is a big gulf between having adequate basic knowledge to recognise a seriously disturbed individual with a mental health problem, including how to deal with them at first instance, and sufficient time and expertise to continue doing so while waiting for hours for the NHS to take over (assuming it even will). paulmakin said:
in my catchment area we have a joint protocol for the management of MH patients in the community. when i say joint what i mean is that the local force wrote it and then invited comment from health, social care, ambulance etc. i know this for an absolute fact - i was there. it worries me that, in my own area of responsibility, i have in the last 3 months had at least 5 officers request a copy of that protocol from me as they "haven't seen it". it went live mid 2015.
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the protocol was required to deal with the fact the the police are often de facto the first responders and are being expected to expected to provide ongoing care instead of the relevant service - i.e. the NHS. If the latter cannot provide the requisite facilities, the police have little alternative but to provide a place of safety however inappropriate/unsuitable it may be.It's the fault of successive governments which have failed to face up to the problem and provide the appropriate personnel and, above all, infrastructure. It remains to be seen whether the latest round of fine words will provide a solution - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
paulmakin said:
a quick internet trawl (including on here) throws up many instances of "cops took twenty twelve days to respond to my crime report".
Perhaps that's because vast numbers of Officers are on constant watch, babysitting MH cases because the appropriate departments are 'too busy'paulmakin said:
edit - for discussion and just thinking with my keyboard (quiet on-call, need something to do). use of police powers in the Children's Act may have prevented all this. Q?-what was the decision making process that lead to this child being in a cell rather than a hospital? i do not know but, i can envisage a situation where, a non-application of available powers could have inadvertently created this situation
Turn up to a MH ward/unit with anybody who is violent, aggressive or has walked past an off licence in the previous week and they won't even open the door. I wish we could abdicate our responsibilities so easily, knowing another organisation will get the blame. Edited by paulmakin on Thursday 9th June 01:08
XDA said:
Does this answer your questions?
"Ms H also attacked the force for refusing to let her see her daughter in the police cells. I asked police officers again and again to let me see her but they kept telling me that I wasn’t needed."
"Ms H, to call the police after her daughter ran away from her in Horsham town centre and refused to come back."
"Child H again became distressed while out with her mother and ran into a road. Ms H telephoned the police for assistance."
"She was arrested on suspicion of assaulting her mother"
"Child H ran away from her mother’s house and was found by police officers in Horsham town centre."
"Child H ran away from her mother in Horsham town centre."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/08/ip...
No blame on the mothers part. The same cannot be said of the police though...
Partially - the bits you are missing out about foster care certainly do answer some of the questions. If the child is in foster care, presumably the mother has been found incapable or unhelpful. So that explains why she wasn't allowed in. "Ms H also attacked the force for refusing to let her see her daughter in the police cells. I asked police officers again and again to let me see her but they kept telling me that I wasn’t needed."
"Ms H, to call the police after her daughter ran away from her in Horsham town centre and refused to come back."
"Child H again became distressed while out with her mother and ran into a road. Ms H telephoned the police for assistance."
"She was arrested on suspicion of assaulting her mother"
"Child H ran away from her mother’s house and was found by police officers in Horsham town centre."
"Child H ran away from her mother in Horsham town centre."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/08/ip...
No blame on the mothers part. The same cannot be said of the police though...
I'm slightly at a loss as to what everyone expects the plod to do. They're faced with a violent, self harming 11 year old. A cup of tea and a nice chat won't really cut it, and it appears reasoning won't cut it. Without restraints, how do you expect anyone to protect both the child and themselves?
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