No-show goods fitting question

[Vron]

Hi,

Quick question.

I had a booking for parking sensors fitting 9am today, been booked for 2 weeks.

The parts have been delivered prior. The 'fitter' left me a voicemail about 9.30am to say he was going to another (emergency) job instead that he installed yesterday (!) I have booked 1/2 day off work. After an hour of messaging someone from the Company eventually phoned back basically saying they would fit another time instead. I've said to cancel and they collect the parts and refund. They are refusing to collect the parts (via courier) saying I have to bear the cost of the return of the parts. I have pointed out they have failed to supply the service agreed and paid for so they should bear the cost of the return, and strictly speaking I could charge them for waiting in for nothing but I wouldn't if they arrange for the parts to be collected and a full refund. They say no.

Do I have to suck up the cost of the return as well as having wasted this morning and waited two weeks for nothing?

[Red Devil]

I assume this is a supply and fit contract. If it is the former it is a mixed contract and the fit part is one for services.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/conten...

What do the company's T&Cs say (if anything)?

As for your time off, what actual loss can you prove? Are you employed or self-employed?
http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/engineer-doesnt-tu...

[Vron]

Self Employed.

Their terms and conditions only relate to the physical goods not them fitting. It says there is a three months warranty then if you return (as faulty) they will apply a 10% handling charge (!) ??

[Andehh]

I'd be just as annoyed over that, that really is bad service - especially costing you the holiday.

I would trash them on every review site I could find, including google, and keep pressing them!

[Red Devil]

Vron said:

Self Employed.

Then you may have a case for compensation if you can prove loss of income. If they call your bluff you will either then have to go through with it or cave. Could be a negative sum game to me though.

Vron said:

Their terms and conditions only relate to the physical goods not them fitting.

In their absence re the fitting, Sections 52 & 54 in the link I posted earlier apply.

Vron said:

It says there is a three months warranty then if you return (as faulty) they will apply a 10% handling charge (!) ??

A warranty cannot exclude your statutory rights. However we are not talking about faulty goods here. You are seeking to terminate under Section 54(7)(f) for the services part and Section 20 for the goods. You need to be aware of the 30 day time limit under Section 22.

Mixed contracts can be a PITA to deal with. The CRA is still relatively new and a surprising number of companies still haven't got their heads around it. There is no substitute for a thorough reading of the legislation to find out exactly where you stand and how to counter any BS that a supplier may throw at you.

They will probably use the reasonable time defence. The key thing for you is whether time was of the essence (in relation to you taking time away from pursuing your livelihood and potentially losing income as a result) and that you communicated this to the company.

Make sure you have the right ammo before going into battle and keep your powder dry.

[Mandalore]

Sounds like the fitter either messed up the previous days install, or it overran. Either way its still a ball ache.

Have you paid the full amount up front?

Could you insist they make the replacement appointment on a Saturday or Sunday.

[anonymous-user]

What have you paid so far? Can't you just get someone else to fit the parts?

[Vron]

I paid supply and fit, the goods were sent in advance. I have returned them today and had this email just now from them. BTW they told me the installation would take 2 hours. They are now saying 6. However I was told that over the phone so cannot prove otherwise. I have noticed on the review sites, any negative reviews of which there are a few are quickly met with a retort basically saying the customer is wrong.

The 'engineer' just left me a message yesterday about 9.30 saying he wasn't coming, he didn't answer his phone and it was 10.46 before anyone responded to my emails to the company asking what was happening. The response was they would fit that afternoon. I advised this wasn't possible as my car would be in a hospital car park. At this point they agreed to refund (after some arguing over) the return cost providing I used the lowest priced carrier who they would email and advise who that should be when the phone conversation had finished. They didn't. So I've sent back today for £7.24 and emailed advising such:



Thank you for your email.

Firstly apologies that your job was due to be delayed.

Due to the legal nature of the email I need to deal with that first so please excuse the length of the email.

For our retail side of the business it is vital we fully understand the law and sales of goods act inside out to protect our customers and make sure they are offered everything they are entitled to and that we all work to achieve that. The Sales of goods act is there to protect both consumers and retailers and we always work within this law, and more often beyond what customers entitlements are, we have never worked outside of this law in all the years of trading.

So apologies that your job was due to be delayed, this is something we try and avoid, but is not avoidable for our industry which is why we state an estimated time of arrival, it is only an estimate and is subject to change.

The installation you ordered takes approximately 6 hours to complete. We were initially hoping to be with you around 09.00 and finish by 3pm. However our engineer had to move this so was aiming to be with you for 11am and finishing by 5pm.

An installation date and time can be effective by any number of reasons and the sales of goods act does allow for this, they understand, that although frustrating, this is part of a normal working business. At all times the customer has the right to cancel and return the goods, but they are not entitled to have postage covered or any compensation paid.

The sales of goods act states that it is reasonable that a retailer has, should a problem arise, 3 attempts to deliver the service and that it should be completed within 30 days before a consumer has any rights to a breach of contract, however, and despite the misconception customers time is not a legal or valid item that can be claimed as compensation in a small claims court under UK law.

We would not look to take 3 attempts or 30 days as the Sales of goods act allows, usually we would just re-arrange and the job is completed. We do have to re-arrange jobs on occasions and this, although frustrating does not usually result in a cancelled order.

So to outline from a legal stand point, and not our stand point, no contract was breached, and there is no consumer right that entitles you to the postage or ½ a day’s wages. If you spoke to trading standards or gained free legal advice for example they would ask if you tried to resolve it with us first and re-book, if you stated no and that you wanted to cancel the order, they would advise you that is your right, but you would be liable for the return postage and have no rights to claim ½ a days wages.

So that is the legality of it and how it would be if taken further.

[foxsasha]

Just suck up the 7 quid and move on.

[Wozy68]

foxsasha said:

Just suck up the 7 quid and move on.

This.

I can't understand why the heck the OP just didn't phone them in the first place when the fitter was delayed rather than mail.

Are people losing the ability to converse now?

[Red Devil]

Vron said:

The installation you ordered takes approximately 6 hours to complete. We were initially hoping to be with you around 09.00 and finish by 3pm. However our engineer had to move this so was aiming to be with you for 11am and finishing by 5pm.

This suggests a typical install should take half that time - http://www.jh-installs.co.uk/parking_sensors.htm
Either your supplier is effectively saying their engineer can only complete one install per day*, or your car is a bit 'special'.

 * Inclusive of travel time: doesn't seem like a particularly efficient business model to me.

[rscott]

So they're trying to be clever by quoting the Sale Of Goods Act. Pity that was replaced last year by the Consumer Rights Act last year.
I guess that shows how meaningless their email is.

[SpeedMattersNot]

Vron said:

I paid supply and fit, the goods were sent in advance. I have returned them today and had this email just now from them. BTW they told me the installation would take 2 hours. They are now saying 6. However I was told that over the phone so cannot prove otherwise. I have noticed on the review sites, any negative reviews of which there are a few are quickly met with a retort basically saying the customer is wrong.

The 'engineer' just left me a message yesterday about 9.30 saying he wasn't coming, he didn't answer his phone and it was 10.46 before anyone responded to my emails to the company asking what was happening. The response was they would fit that afternoon. I advised this wasn't possible as my car would be in a hospital car park. At this point they agreed to refund (after some arguing over) the return cost providing I used the lowest priced carrier who they would email and advise who that should be when the phone conversation had finished. They didn't. So I've sent back today for £7.24 and emailed advising such:

The installation you ordered takes approximately 6 hours to complete. We were initially hoping to be with you around 09.00 and finish by 3pm. However our engineer had to move this so was aiming to be with you for 11am and finishing by 5pm.

I'm also sceptical of the so called 'engineer' status.

What sort of work were you having done that it took 6 hours to install? I'm assuming cameras and display not just the proximity sensors themselves, as I've fitted £20 kits in less than 30 minutes before...but then again I am actually an engineer, so...

[Vron]

Wozy68 said:

This.

I can't understand why the heck the OP just didn't phone them in the first place when the fitter was delayed rather than mail.

Are people losing the ability to converse now?

I phoned them twice at their offices and the fitter directly first and no reply (voicemails left) so emailed (twice) and after the second email got a response.

[Vron]

SpeedMattersNot said:

Vron said:

I paid supply and fit, the goods were sent in advance. I have returned them today and had this email just now from them. BTW they told me the installation would take 2 hours. They are now saying 6. However I was told that over the phone so cannot prove otherwise. I have noticed on the review sites, any negative reviews of which there are a few are quickly met with a retort basically saying the customer is wrong.

The 'engineer' just left me a message yesterday about 9.30 saying he wasn't coming, he didn't answer his phone and it was 10.46 before anyone responded to my emails to the company asking what was happening. The response was they would fit that afternoon. I advised this wasn't possible as my car would be in a hospital car park. At this point they agreed to refund (after some arguing over) the return cost providing I used the lowest priced carrier who they would email and advise who that should be when the phone conversation had finished. They didn't. So I've sent back today for £7.24 and emailed advising such:

The installation you ordered takes approximately 6 hours to complete. We were initially hoping to be with you around 09.00 and finish by 3pm. However our engineer had to move this so was aiming to be with you for 11am and finishing by 5pm.

I'm also sceptical of the so called 'engineer' status.

What sort of work were you having done that it took 6 hours to install? I'm assuming cameras and display not just the proximity sensors themselves, as I've fitted £20 kits in less than 30 minutes before...but then again I am actually an engineer, so...

No just beepers. They told me on booking two hours. To be honest pretty much everything they have put in the email contradicts what I was told on the phone. However, as I pointed out the poor reviews have all been met with a retort online so the company clearly has to have 'the last word' on everything regardless.

[Vron]

Just an update. The goods were delivered back. They have since sent me 6 stty emails as I put a letter in saying i had notified the credit card company these goods were returned. Which I did by phone.

They are saying they cannot refund me now (but they urgently want to) because I will get refunded twice as I told the credit card company I had returned the goods. He is taking the view I have opened a chargeback which I didn't say and he knows I cannot do that until 14 days after they have received the goods back. He is saying basically unless he has confirmation with the ten digit reference number from my credit card company that the case is closed first he is not refunding. He has also said unless the case with the credit card company is closed he will withdraw his agreement to refund my £7.24 return cost.

I never expected them to honour that anyway once they had the goods back. As I've said before you can see they take this'customer is always wrong' stance by default.

So I'm gong to email him back today and say clearly a deadlock has been reached and I will be dealing with MasterCard when the 14 day time period expires.

[Mandat]

Vron said:

So I'm gong to email him back today and say clearly a deadlock has been reached and I will be dealing with MasterCard when the 14 day time period expires.

Your proposed approach sort of proves his point, does it not?

[Vron]

Mandat said:

Vron said:

So I'm gong to email him back today and say clearly a deadlock has been reached and I will be dealing with MasterCard when the 14 day time period expires.

Your proposed approach sort of proves his point, does it not?

What his stating in writing to me I will be refunded twice which is utter bks? And that I have to tell the credit card company there is 'no issue' with this transaction (when there is!) and he has to then have that confirmed by Mastercard (personally) before he will refund? Like he said he would refund the £7.24? Clearly a man of his word.

What sort of decent retailer adopts that attitude? It's a straightforward goods returned so refund within 14 days of receipt. They caused this issue in the first place.

[Greengecko]

He is telling the truth about being unable to refund you.

When a credit card chargeback is raised against our company, our payment processor advises us to wait on the outcome.

I am confused as to why you raised an issue with your credit card company so quickly, it's a huge hassle and bound to get any company's back up.

[Vron]

I didn't raise a chargeback I never said I had, all I said was I had notified the CC company by phone that the goods had been returned and should be refunded shortly.

I cannot raise a chargeback until the 14 days expires after the delivery of goods. I know that and he knows that it's just another stalling tactic.

The credit card company confirmed what he was saying was rubbish as as soon as they refund the dispute (if there was a chargeback raised) is closed automatically so I wouldn't be able to get a double refund.