Bus Lane Fine, Contest?
Discussion
If no bus is delayed, no harm has been done. Similarly, stopping a car with a few inches overhanging a yellow box is of no consequence if no traffic is delayed. Councils use these cameras primarily as a money making exercise and we are generally such soft sherberts that we allow the b
ds to get away with it.
If only we could fine Councils for their numerous errors, e.g. in road signage.
ds to get away with it.If only we could fine Councils for their numerous errors, e.g. in road signage.
Cliftonite said:
If no bus is delayed, no harm has been done. Similarly, stopping a car with a few inches overhanging a yellow box is of no consequence if no traffic is delayed. Councils use these cameras primarily as a money making exercise and we are generally such soft sherberts that we allow the bds to get away with it.
They use them to enforce the law. Without the cameras, people would ignore bus lanes, ignore yellow boxes and even ignore red lights.ds to get away with it.It's easy to avoid a fine - you don't cross the line into a bus lane.
Trabi601 said:
They use them to enforce the law. Without the cameras, people would ignore bus lanes, ignore yellow boxes and even ignore red lights.
It's easy to avoid a fine - you don't cross the line into a bus lane.
Driving through red lights is dangerous. Stopping in a yellow box and obstructing the flow of traffic is highly inconvenient to other road users. I believe most people recognise these two 'offences' for what they are and have no problem with a fine being issued.It's easy to avoid a fine - you don't cross the line into a bus lane.
Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
Trabi601 said:
Cliftonite said:
If no bus is delayed, no harm has been done. Similarly, stopping a car with a few inches overhanging a yellow box is of no consequence if no traffic is delayed. Councils use these cameras primarily as a money making exercise and we are generally such soft sherberts that we allow the bds to get away with it.
They use them to enforce the law. Without the cameras, people would ignore bus lanes, ignore yellow boxes and even ignore red lights.ds to get away with it.It's easy to avoid a fine - you don't cross the line into a bus lane.
Garvin said:
Driving through red lights is dangerous. Stopping in a yellow box and obstructing the flow of traffic is highly inconvenient to other road users. I believe most people recognise these two 'offences' for what they are and have no problem with a fine being issued.
Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
You mention discretion but...Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
What if you turned left on a red as if it was any other junction?
What if you stopped in a yellow box and caused no obstruction?
The reason why Bus lane fines are so clean cut is because it's too easy to argue that you didn't obstruct the bus, perhaps because you were traveling faster than it.
OP you've been had bang to rights. Argue against the justification of bus lanes all you like, but in this case 2 wheels or 4 you are obstructing a bus lane, even without a bus!
Riley Blue said:
untakenname said:
It's the sign at the beginning of this video of the incident, just uploaded from my dashcam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zxWBzg8s8
The partially obscured sign is one of several bus lane notifications. Had it been the only one, you might have had a case but it isn't, the others are perfectly clear and unobstructed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zxWBzg8s8
So I'm somewhat puzzled by your assertion that there are 'others'.
Where is your evidence? AFAIK there is only one prior indication (see below)
Interestingly, that obscured sign (Diagram 959) is missing in Google Street View dated Sep 2104.
It is a regulatory sign which is required per Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual.
It would seem that LB Bromley was non-compliant at that time and it has been added later.
However the lead in sign (Diagram 958), which is likewise required, is present.
I doubt very much that it isn't still there (the video clip begins too late to tell us).
In which case the deficient signage argument has very little chance of succeeding.
That only leaves the de minimis argument (per Kornbluth).
It's entirely up to the OP whether he wants to try it.
It's risky though as he would be lying about turning left into Penge Lane.
Not something I would want to do in front of an adjudicator.
Especially if LB Bromley has camera footage which will expose the deception.
What irks me is the 'rules is rules' approach of local authorities when it suits their purpose.
When they stuff up though they all wriggle like hooked salmon and refuse to accept the same applies to them.
The classic example of local authority greed and intransigence is LB Barnet.
Back in 2011 it tried to fleece residents for parking permits in a CPZ.
The annual cost went up by a factor of 250% and visitors were stiffed by 300%.
Those affected were understandably furious so they took the Council to court.
The local authority's moral bankruptcy was exposed when the residents won.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/councils-can...
Despite this defeat the leader of the Council was determined to carry on fighting.
Fortunately wiser heads prevailed and legal advice was for him to stop being a
https://www.barnet.gov.uk/citizen-home/news/statem...
I bet Lord Acton was looking down with a wry smile.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/councils-can...
Red Devil said:
Riley Blue said:
untakenname said:
It's the sign at the beginning of this video of the incident, just uploaded from my dashcam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zxWBzg8s8
The partially obscured sign is one of several bus lane notifications. Had it been the only one, you might have had a case but it isn't, the others are perfectly clear and unobstructed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zxWBzg8s8
So I'm somewhat puzzled by your assertion that there are 'others'.
Where is your evidence? AFAIK there is only one prior indication (see below)
Garvin said:
...........Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
The Law is black and white for this offence though, and the same for everyone - You either commit the offence or you do not.If you start to introduce discretion into the equation, you end up in a situation whereby some drivers get done for the offence, whilst other drivers don't get done for the exact same offence - How can that fair be to everyone?
4x4Tyke said:
Bus lanes are supposed to end either 10 or 30 meters before right turns depending on the junction type.
Where did you get that legislation from?Where I live we have bus lanes that run for several miles through the City, and none of those end 10 or 30 metres every time there's a right turn junction along that section of road.
4rephill said:
Garvin said:
...........Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
The Law is black and white for this offence though, and the same for everyone - You either commit the offence or you do not.If you start to introduce discretion into the equation, you end up in a situation whereby some drivers get done for the offence, whilst other drivers don't get done for the exact same offence - How can that fair be to everyone?
Pete317 said:
4rephill said:
Garvin said:
...........Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
The Law is black and white for this offence though, and the same for everyone - You either commit the offence or you do not.If you start to introduce discretion into the equation, you end up in a situation whereby some drivers get done for the offence, whilst other drivers don't get done for the exact same offence - How can that fair be to everyone?
4rephill said:
Garvin said:
...........Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
The Law is black and white for this offence though, and the same for everyone - You either commit the offence or you do not.If you start to introduce discretion into the equation, you end up in a situation whereby some drivers get done for the offence, whilst other drivers don't get done for the exact same offence - How can that fair be to everyone?
megaphone said:
4rephill said:
Garvin said:
...........Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
The Law is black and white for this offence though, and the same for everyone - You either commit the offence or you do not.If you start to introduce discretion into the equation, you end up in a situation whereby some drivers get done for the offence, whilst other drivers don't get done for the exact same offence - How can that fair be to everyone?
vonhosen said:
Pete317 said:
4rephill said:
Garvin said:
...........Clipping a bus lane or having a few inches of your vehicle in a yellow box that does not obstruct traffic causes no disruption whatsoever and, IMHO, most people would prefer a bit of discretion to be exercised rather than fines being issued 'to the letter of the law'.
The Law is black and white for this offence though, and the same for everyone - You either commit the offence or you do not.If you start to introduce discretion into the equation, you end up in a situation whereby some drivers get done for the offence, whilst other drivers don't get done for the exact same offence - How can that fair be to everyone?
But wait until the people who made it an absolute offence to put one wheel onto a bus lane turn their attention to people stepping on cracks...
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