87 year old who shot wife.

[drivin_me_nuts]

I'm not sure of anyone else is following this story. It does not take much to put yourself into this man's shoes and wonder if you'd do the same as him...

But, as far as the law is concerned, is murder, murder, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-3671487...

[Jasandjules]

Yes, I would do the same. And I would hope my wife would do the same for me.

[Drawweight]

I admit to knowing not a lot about dementia but isn't the patient to a large extent unaware of their circumstances and as such there is no 'suffering'

The suffering is all on the nearest and dearest but is that enough reason to end a life?

[Derek Smith]

I'd like to know his defence, whether he's opting for manslaughter or not, and if so on what grounds.

His reasons will be taken into account when it comes to sentence if found guilty, as well as his age. He'll receive life, but how long he will spend inside is open to question.

His state of mind is a consideration for the crime itself as well as mitigation.

[TooMany2cvs]

Derek Smith said:

He'll receive life, but how long he will spend inside is open to question.

He's 87. It's going to be irrelevant.

[dirkgently]

My wife is a health care assistant, she has asked me to shoot her if she ends up in a care home, I hope that I have the courage to carry out her request if it happens.

[Jasandjules]

Drawweight said:

I admit to knowing not a lot about dementia but isn't the patient to a large extent unaware of their circumstances and as such there is no 'suffering'

The suffering is all on the nearest and dearest but is that enough reason to end a life?

Not quite. As I understand it, the sufferer has periods where they are aware and they then panic as they don't know what is happening i.e. why they are not in their own home and why there is a stranger there etc...

Also periods where they have what amounts to a flashback to something which also causes panic and distress.

That is my very limited understanding of the awful nature of this condition. I may well be wrong but that is what is happening to my Nan....

[rfisher]

It's a tragic story from all angles.

I suspect that he will get a suspended sentence for manslaughter or be acquitted by the jury.

He's a danger to himself in terms of his suicide risk, but not to others.

[Derek Smith]

Jasandjules said:

Not quite. As I understand it, the sufferer has periods where they are aware and they then panic as they don't know what is happening i.e. why they are not in their own home and why there is a stranger there etc...

Also periods where they have what amounts to a flashback to something which also causes panic and distress.

That is my very limited understanding of the awful nature of this condition. I may well be wrong but that is what is happening to my Nan....

I had an uncle whom I loved very much - war hero, gentle, built like a second row, great sense of humour, generous. When a close friend died he moved in with his wife as she had advanced Parkinson's. It was very stressful for him as well as her. She died and all of a sudden he deteriorated. He went to a home to recuperate but he woke up every morning thinking that the woman, his close friend by that time, was alive. So every day he went through the agony of her death.

When we went to visit, he'd chat for a while and then say 'Something's happened, hasn't it.' He'd then remember and start to cry. He'd then forget why he was crying and the process started all over again. As we'd go to leave he'd remember again. He was going to be moved to a care home. The family objected as we knew it would make everything worse for him. When I received the phone call that he'd died in his sleep, rather unexpectedly, the relief was overwhelming.

An inspector was once asked by a PC who had recently attended a sudden death of an alzheimers sufferer what he would do if he attended a sudden death of an alzheimers sufferer who had clearly been smothered but the doctor had diagnosed heart attack.

Reality is quite shocking at times. Like everyone I suppose, we would not want to inflict such a situation on our loved ones and would be quite prepared to be put out of our, and their, misery.

[Durzel]

Euthanasia is illegal in this country so the only appropriate prosecution is for (voluntary) manslaughter, and on the face of it he should be found guilty. This is entirely distinct from the sentence which would take into consideration culpability etc.

A sad story to be sure, and I doubt there is much appetite to prosecute him, but the Law must be upheld.

(IANAL though so interested to hear from practitioners)

[singlecoil]

TooMany2cvs said:

Derek Smith said:

He'll receive life, but how long he will spend inside is open to question.

He's 87. It's going to be irrelevant.

Hardly. I have a 91 year old neighbour who is still quite active and 100% mentally.

[JagerT]

Jackie Stewart and sons were on TV this morning,his wife Helen is suffering from dementia,setting up a charity I think he said.

[Derek Smith]

Durzel said:

A sad story to be sure, and I doubt there is much appetite to prosecute him, but the Law must be upheld.

(IANAL though so interested to hear from practitioners)

Do you think that doctors never over-prescribe opiates to the terminally ill?

Do you think that police officers don't turn a blind eye?

Difficult to do in this case of course.

The law is mostly upheld. It is good that someone has the bottle to stand for the best way out of a terrible situation.

I'm not suggesting no prosecution in the case.

[ikarl]

Derek Smith said:

An inspector was once asked by a PC who had recently attended a sudden death of an alzheimers sufferer what he would do if he attended a sudden death of an alzheimers sufferer who had clearly been smothered but the doctor had diagnosed heart attack.

What was the response?

[TooMany2cvs]

singlecoil said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Derek Smith said:

He'll receive life, but how long he will spend inside is open to question.

He's 87. It's going to be irrelevant.

Hardly. I have a 91 year old neighbour who is still quite active and 100% mentally.

Sure. But how long would he sit in prison before just shrugging, giving up, and just folding in on himself?

[BlueHave]

Having seen the devastating effect dementia can have first hand once it fully takes hold.

I would like to think someone would slip me a tablet and put me out of my misery if I was suffering.

It really isn't an existence I would wish on anyone.

[singlecoil]

TooMany2cvs said:

singlecoil said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Derek Smith said:

He'll receive life, but how long he will spend inside is open to question.

He's 87. It's going to be irrelevant.

Hardly. I have a 91 year old neighbour who is still quite active and 100% mentally.

Sure. But how long would he sit in prison before just shrugging, giving up, and just folding in on himself?

Seven and a half years.

[Red Devil]

Derek Smith said:

I'd like to know his defence, whether he's opting for manslaughter or not, and if so on what grounds.

His reasons will be taken into account when it comes to sentence if found guilty, as well as his age. He'll receive life, but how long he will spend inside is open to question.

His state of mind is a consideration for the crime itself as well as mitigation.

Echoes of this case - www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/man-79-jailed-killing...

[Durzel]

Derek Smith said:

Do you think that doctors never over-prescribe opiates to the terminally ill?

Do you think that police officers don't turn a blind eye?

Difficult to do in this case of course.

The law is mostly upheld. It is good that someone has the bottle to stand for the best way out of a terrible situation.

I'm not suggesting no prosecution in the case.

Of course I know that stuff goes on, but they also have to protect themselves too. When my Gran recently passed her attending doctor tacitly said that she was going to be given more morphine "for the pain", and the family in attendance all knew what that meant. They don't do it brazenly though because they are obviously on a knife edge legally.

On the face of this though the system can hardly just turn a blind eye to it now that it's widely known about, even if the punishment is negligible.

[Derek Smith]

ikarl said:

Derek Smith said:

An inspector was once asked by a PC who had recently attended a sudden death of an alzheimers sufferer what he would do if he attended a sudden death of an alzheimers sufferer who had clearly been smothered but the doctor had diagnosed heart attack.

What was the response?

It was on a course with other inspectors. It was during the evening and the chap was a little drunk. I'm tee-total and so a magnet for those with worries. He said: 'What would you do . . .' but ended with 'I didn't know what was the right thing to do'. He was rather rambling although I've covered the important bits. He just talked about the fall-out from various alternatives.

I just gave one of my non-committal noises, of which I have many.

He didn't reply to my question as to what he'd done. It was obvious that he must have done nothing as we'd have heard via the newspapers or internal rumour mill but he was loose-mouthed when a little tipsy and I thought it wouldn't be long before the story broke.

I tried to answer the question myself. If I'd been the PC I'd have thanked the doctor for his help and shaken his hand. So: I see no reason to impose my morals on anyone else but I'd have supported the PC in his silence by giving advice, mainly to make a note that the husband was rambling, frequently incoherent and that he blamed himself for her death. He seemed troubled, I would mention, with the guilt of feeling relieved that his wife was out of her misery. I'd have put a report through to the husband's doctor to ask him to assess his mental well-being.

I'd have thought that I'd done my job and that the PC had done his.