Police Inspectors - what do they do?
Discussion
Elroy Blue said:
mel said:
Actually I know a fair few Doctors and none of them used to be either Nurses or Paramedics. But certainly the best Trauma Teams are made up of a Doctor & Paramedic combination because they each bring specific skills to the table.
I think you'll find a Doctor has rather more than six months 'training'. Ridiculous comparison.Baryonyx said:
Would you trust a direct entry doctor?
Police Officers need to take off the blinkers and open their minds to realise that just perhaps they can learn something and perhaps there are individuals out there that can bring lots of best practise, cost savings and efficiency increases to the job they believe they own because they've been institutionalised for an entire career. Perhaps if you learnt from someone with experience of how Amazon get that parcel you ordered at 10pm on your doorstep within 12 hours or how the AA get a patrol to you within half an hour whilst operating with minimal manpower you would see more similarities than you credit between a hard pressed shift of 4 officers covering a town centre and the private sector. Perhaps 101 might get answered once in a while and perhaps someone in a uniform might actually be able to attend a burglary sooner than three days later if at all. I would never say there is no place for internal career progression but you will never attract the best from industry that you can learn from if you tell them they're expected to spend 2 years as a Special or PCSO before applying, they've got to spend another 2 as a glorified gofor and will be paid sub £30K. We're talking positions for commercially experienced Graduates, often with several years management experience, in their 30's+ and often with families and mortgages. They would dismiss the prospect of the traditional entry route within seconds.
Elroy Blue said:
Apparently being experienced makes you a 'bitter and twisted pension trapper'. Unfortunately you'll never convince those with this attitude that we want to provide the best service we can and that doesn't come from parachuting a Supermarket manager into a critical frontline role.
A quote I heard a long time ago came from a very very sharp and intelligent young Manager when dealing with an overly stubborn and resistant to change individual it went along the lines of:"I've got over 20 years experience doing this job and I'm telling you it will not work and you will not see any improvement"
"You haven't got 20 years experience at all, you've got a year tops, you've just repeated it 20 times"
Change was implemented, change worked.
(I concede I've also probably seem as many instances where the "old guy" has been proven correct but good (senior) management is about being able to look at both sides, analyse and decide what's best, but you'll only see one set of options if you don't open it up to bring in new thinking)
mel said:
Perhaps if you learnt from someone with experience of how Amazon get that parcel you ordered at 10pm on your doorstep within 12 hours or how the AA get a patrol to you within half an hour whilst operating with minimal manpower you would see more similarities than you credit between a hard pressed shift of 4 officers covering a town centre and the private sector. .
Amazon do it by using zero hour contracts and pitiful wages to desperate 'self employed' delivery drivers. I'm also sorry to have to tell you (as a m/way patrol Officer), the AA don't get to people within half an hour. They expect the Police and Highways Agency to backfill and do their job for them. They have the luxury of being able to say 'no'. We don't. Your perception and reality are miles apart. When people realise that Policing is not a business and will never, ever be able to make a profit, we might actually be able to progress.mel said:
I would never say there is no place for internal career progression but you will never attract the best from industry that you can learn from if you tell them they're expected to spend 2 years as a Special or PCSO before applying, they've got to spend another 2 as a glorified gofor and will be paid sub £30K. We're talking positions for commercially experienced Graduates, often with several years management experience, in their 30's+ and often with families and mortgages. They would dismiss the prospect of the traditional entry route within seconds.
Nice that you see a young in service PC as a 'glorified gofor'. I can see the type of manager you are. Probationer PCs are some of the hardest working Officers in the job. They'll be on an under-resources 24/7 shift, busting a gut trying to keep the lid on. That's where they learn reality and what actually works. Odd that you want experienced graduates at the very time the Government have spent years slashing Police pay and conditions. I've seen the value of graduates, both in the Forces when they received extra seniority and fast track in the Police. Having a degree means nothing when you're up to your eyes in s
t. Practicality, experience and common sense are of much more value.Direct entry in general isn't very well received. And I mainly agree. As has been said, I feel it's better to have someone giving the orders who has been there, and knows what they're talking about.
That said, for purely managerial roles, there is an argument that direct entry is a massive advantage. Bringing in managers from large private firms who have a wealth of experience managing people can only mean a good thing. It brings in new ways of thinking that perhaps aren't tainted by years of being in the job.
I think it's got to be the right roles, and the right people. Not a PSU inspector for example. Not what it's meant for, but I'm not sure they'd be able to stop a direct entry inspector from deciding he wants a go at PSU....
When I was a PC, I attempted the direct entry to Insp pathway that they were offering. Not as bad in my opinion as if have had several years exp as a PC.
As far as how others think about you...if you don't care about being popular, or having immediate respect, then I guess it doesn't really matter.
That said, for purely managerial roles, there is an argument that direct entry is a massive advantage. Bringing in managers from large private firms who have a wealth of experience managing people can only mean a good thing. It brings in new ways of thinking that perhaps aren't tainted by years of being in the job.
I think it's got to be the right roles, and the right people. Not a PSU inspector for example. Not what it's meant for, but I'm not sure they'd be able to stop a direct entry inspector from deciding he wants a go at PSU....
When I was a PC, I attempted the direct entry to Insp pathway that they were offering. Not as bad in my opinion as if have had several years exp as a PC.
As far as how others think about you...if you don't care about being popular, or having immediate respect, then I guess it doesn't really matter.
Interesting topic. Inspector is IMHO one of the most important ranks in the Police... Certainly the highest rank which has any sort of connection with nuts-and-bolts policing.
Certainly in investigations a good DI can make the difference between a team getting stuff done on minimal resources and a team bogged down in no-hope investigations because "We could be criticised if..." Rather than leading from the front.
I've worked for both, and the difference is staggering. Good DIs tend to mainly trust the instincts and experience of their staff. Arguably direct entrant DIs from a good commercial background could do this, but they will miss the essential details which you only pick up over time, and indeed sometimes the angle that, when reviewing a case, the hard-pressed Detective Constables may have missed. THAT's the big difference...
As for the contention that we need better media trained staff, that's just bobbins. There are now big Corporate Communications departments in place to do exactly that, feed the frontline staff with their lines!
Certainly in investigations a good DI can make the difference between a team getting stuff done on minimal resources and a team bogged down in no-hope investigations because "We could be criticised if..." Rather than leading from the front.
I've worked for both, and the difference is staggering. Good DIs tend to mainly trust the instincts and experience of their staff. Arguably direct entrant DIs from a good commercial background could do this, but they will miss the essential details which you only pick up over time, and indeed sometimes the angle that, when reviewing a case, the hard-pressed Detective Constables may have missed. THAT's the big difference...
As for the contention that we need better media trained staff, that's just bobbins. There are now big Corporate Communications departments in place to do exactly that, feed the frontline staff with their lines!
mel said:
Greendubber said:
If you want no respect from those you are ordering about then do direct access.
I know I wouldnt want to be in public order situation being told what to do by someone who has never done it themselves, its just dangerous. I also wouldnt want a gaffer with no experience leading a serious investigation either.
No amount of training can match proper, time served through the ranks experience.
So who would be the best person to wheel out in front of the cameras when the media are demanding a statement from either a uniform with stuff on the shoulder or someone with a D at the front of their rank? Someone who knows the best way to contain a petrol bomb throwing mob or a trained pr professional with 10 years experience dealing with the media on a daily basis? In this day and age of instant social media and viral broadcast of pr disasters I'd suggest that Direct Entry is recognising the needs of the service for diverse skill sets. It'd be no good putting a "media manager" in a suit in front of cameras either that's not what they want or demand, there very often needs to be a clear no nonsense statement made at an early and critical stage and it needs to be delivered by a Uniform (locally) to carry any sort of weight or influence. Lets face it the Police haven't got the best reputation to date for dealing with the media, they tend to either clam up and say nothing or put a pair of size tens squarely in the traps laid for them, normally because they aren't trained or experienced enough in that aspect to see it coming! Horses for Courses and all that, after all most environments Middle Manager Rank Police Officers find themselves in are potential Bear Pits and employing experts for each role makes sense to me. I know I wouldnt want to be in public order situation being told what to do by someone who has never done it themselves, its just dangerous. I also wouldnt want a gaffer with no experience leading a serious investigation either.
No amount of training can match proper, time served through the ranks experience.
Another poster mentioned these inspectors wont go near the front line and could be in charge of budgets and spend, in which case why do they need to be a police officer? You could have a civvi doing that. Why have the expense of training someone when you could just hire someone in or contract them?
Its a total waste of time.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Hello. The issue you have is the Inspector role is still quite operational (some roles more than others) and trying to learn operational policing from that top down view would be very challenging. I'd prefer a direct entry Superintendent to a direct entry Inspector as I can see how the service may benefit from outside injection from people whom are going to looking pretty much purely at the strategic aspects of the service.
As a compromise, I support accelerated promotion schemes to get the most capable to the Inspector within a few years, with a minimum of two years as a Constable (as occurs now).
mel said:
Police Officers need to take off the blinkers and open their minds to realise that just perhaps they can learn something and perhaps there are individuals out there that can bring lots of best practise, cost savings and efficiency increases to the job they believe they own because they've been institutionalised for an entire career. Perhaps if you learnt from someone with experience of how Amazon get that parcel you ordered at 10pm on your doorstep within 12 hours or how the AA get a patrol to you within half an hour whilst operating with minimal manpower you would see more similarities than you credit between a hard pressed shift of 4 officers covering a town centre and the private sector. Perhaps 101 might get answered once in a while and perhaps someone in a uniform might actually be able to attend a burglary sooner than three days later if at all.
I would never say there is no place for internal career progression but you will never attract the best from industry that you can learn from if you tell them they're expected to spend 2 years as a Special or PCSO before applying, they've got to spend another 2 as a glorified gofor and will be paid sub £30K. We're talking positions for commercially experienced Graduates, often with several years management experience, in their 30's+ and often with families and mortgages. They would dismiss the prospect of the traditional entry route within seconds.
You're talking about strategic roles, not really operational ones. A businessman / woman can parachute in and manage finances, contracts, HR in the NHS, but they'd struggle to be a Doctor without the education and experience. I would never say there is no place for internal career progression but you will never attract the best from industry that you can learn from if you tell them they're expected to spend 2 years as a Special or PCSO before applying, they've got to spend another 2 as a glorified gofor and will be paid sub £30K. We're talking positions for commercially experienced Graduates, often with several years management experience, in their 30's+ and often with families and mortgages. They would dismiss the prospect of the traditional entry route within seconds.
A word about "Digital Forensics" which was mentioned earlier - I would be very careful there if you're tempted.
First there is a massive oversupply of grads because it looks really smart on Uni prospectuses. I was tempted myself after 20-odd years in IT. It's a niche market which is affected by police funding cuts just like any other department. We did a techie recruitment drive recently and we got way more people with digital forensics degrees than more conventional degrees.
Secondly having spoken to a number of people who've actually done the job, you will most likely spent almost all your time cracking phones and PCs to find kiddy porn. It's a horrible, horrible job. There may be openings out there which don't involve so much of that but tread carefully.
First there is a massive oversupply of grads because it looks really smart on Uni prospectuses. I was tempted myself after 20-odd years in IT. It's a niche market which is affected by police funding cuts just like any other department. We did a techie recruitment drive recently and we got way more people with digital forensics degrees than more conventional degrees.
Secondly having spoken to a number of people who've actually done the job, you will most likely spent almost all your time cracking phones and PCs to find kiddy porn. It's a horrible, horrible job. There may be openings out there which don't involve so much of that but tread carefully.
mel said:
Sounds like you missed the boat then and would have been a good candidate for a Direct Entry position with a Commission already under your belt, which I would assume was a Direct Entry Commission and not as a through a ranks retread? I however have had some very good experiences when dealing with Ambulance Trusts at CEO level with NO clinical experience (although he had also held a Queens Commission and a Senior Command Position) and with a FRS at Group Manager level where she has never kept a watch at a station but is an incredibly motivated, professional and effective manager brought in from the Private Sector.
The difference is that in the NHS , with the exception of a few ambulance service roles Lay Managers don't pretend to be 'real' clinicians ... The role , responsibilities and accountability of the Inspector role in the Police really does require operational experience.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
based on the career pathays of the old grad scheme /HPDS there has been a tendancy towards policy / management roles for these individuals once at Inspector level , I strongly suspect the same will apply to direct entry ... it's not as if the promotion in the Police is Buggins turn ( once you've actually passed the exams ) ...mph1977 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
based on the career pathays of the old grad scheme /HPDS there has been a tendancy towards policy / management roles for these individuals once at Inspector level , I strongly suspect the same will apply to direct entry ... it's not as if the promotion in the Police is Buggins turn ( once you've actually passed the exams ) ...Terzo123 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No matter what they will still hold the office of Constable. anonymous said:
[redacted]
It has been and I think it will continue to be. I would have thought that direct entrants would be steered more towards where their prior expertise lies. i:e - management/structure/policy etc rather than operational. What you would be doing would filter down to operational policing for others to implement. That's my take on it.
However you may as well ask more questions of the force that is advertising as we could be completely wrong and if it interests you then why not go for it. Someone else will.
The problem is that the move is a political one and not a practical one. There is no specified role for direct entrants that would make them any different to those who had come up through the ranks. It was brought in to solve a problem that did not exist. There was a form of rapid promotion where entrants could make senior positions in seven years. In other words only a little longer than the current direct entrant lot.
Experience is, I think, one of the essentials in an operational command role. If a person with a sinecure supervisory position was involved in any way then they would be totally dependent on their inspector.
Above the rank of inspector there is little operational function unless the ranker wants it. That said, one could give overarching orders secure in the knowledge that the rank and file will still do what is best. A good commander without experience would build a team around them to make such decisions, but would not be part of it.
The management of police is highly competitive. Virtually all in my experience are after further promotion.
My understanding is that the direct entrants will not hold the office of constable. In other words they will be civilians, with fewer powers than PCSOs. They will have pretty uniforms, see the current HMI's tailor for examples.
I remember an interview of the woman in charge of the programme saying that applicants should not be afraid that after their 18-month (? Some on here have said 12.) course they will be put in charge of an armed robbery enquiry. Well if not, what is their function? I got a full witness order for a series of armed robberies and the person in charge was a detective constable in the, what I would have called, regional [cross force boundaries] crime squad. The DI had 'overview' and was available for questions. Where do they start these new joiners? On a shed burglary?
So no specific role. One thing which the woman mentioned was a lack of financial knowledge of senior officers. Ten years ago my force had a little team of financial managers.
There was the suggestion that the newcomers should challenge established methods and come up with 'new' ideas. This ignores the reality of police work.
The idea that superintendents and above have a free hand to change systems is something of a myth. The Home Office, via various routes, controls how forces are run. The constraint on change is not through lack of ideas, but the lack of opportunity. I had an idea to save money in my department. Save a lot of money and, in essence, halve the cost. It went against Home Office wishes. My idea was put to the ACC, she liked it but even she couldn't give the nod. It had to go to the CC. He said we should try it to 'see', which in essence was an OK. That, believe it or not, meant that any remaining hopes of his of joining the HMIC were dashed.
It might be an excellent post for the holder. Certainly the money is good. It would be challenging with a glass wall to break down, but if you aren't up to that perhaps the job isn't for you. It could be fun. Just accept that it is unlikely to be operational. It will be management.
Experience is, I think, one of the essentials in an operational command role. If a person with a sinecure supervisory position was involved in any way then they would be totally dependent on their inspector.
Above the rank of inspector there is little operational function unless the ranker wants it. That said, one could give overarching orders secure in the knowledge that the rank and file will still do what is best. A good commander without experience would build a team around them to make such decisions, but would not be part of it.
The management of police is highly competitive. Virtually all in my experience are after further promotion.
My understanding is that the direct entrants will not hold the office of constable. In other words they will be civilians, with fewer powers than PCSOs. They will have pretty uniforms, see the current HMI's tailor for examples.
I remember an interview of the woman in charge of the programme saying that applicants should not be afraid that after their 18-month (? Some on here have said 12.) course they will be put in charge of an armed robbery enquiry. Well if not, what is their function? I got a full witness order for a series of armed robberies and the person in charge was a detective constable in the, what I would have called, regional [cross force boundaries] crime squad. The DI had 'overview' and was available for questions. Where do they start these new joiners? On a shed burglary?
So no specific role. One thing which the woman mentioned was a lack of financial knowledge of senior officers. Ten years ago my force had a little team of financial managers.
There was the suggestion that the newcomers should challenge established methods and come up with 'new' ideas. This ignores the reality of police work.
The idea that superintendents and above have a free hand to change systems is something of a myth. The Home Office, via various routes, controls how forces are run. The constraint on change is not through lack of ideas, but the lack of opportunity. I had an idea to save money in my department. Save a lot of money and, in essence, halve the cost. It went against Home Office wishes. My idea was put to the ACC, she liked it but even she couldn't give the nod. It had to go to the CC. He said we should try it to 'see', which in essence was an OK. That, believe it or not, meant that any remaining hopes of his of joining the HMIC were dashed.
It might be an excellent post for the holder. Certainly the money is good. It would be challenging with a glass wall to break down, but if you aren't up to that perhaps the job isn't for you. It could be fun. Just accept that it is unlikely to be operational. It will be management.
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