Violence against women

[Biker 1]

Be VERY careful before you even think about intervening in these situations. Nice as it would be to play the hero & save the woman, there is a real risk of coming off far worse from a situation that's not even of your own making. Call plod by all means. My brother intervened in very similar circumstances to OP some time back. He ended up in hospital with a shattered jaw. The chap who hit him had his wrists slapped by plod, & the 'lady' he was originally assaulting blamed my brother for pretty much everything!

[Andehh]

Biker 1 said:

Be VERY careful before you even think about intervening in these situations. Nice as it would be to play the hero & save the woman, there is a real risk of coming off far worse from a situation that's not even of your own making. Call plod by all means. My brother intervened in very similar circumstances to OP some time back. He ended up in hospital with a shattered jaw. The chap who hit him had his wrists slapped by plod, & the 'lady' he was originally assaulting blamed my brother for pretty much everything!

This, you have gotta be so careful. I tried one evening outside a party we were all at and the guy threatened to pull a knife on me & "do me in". She just told me to mind my own business.

He later followed my into the toilets and drunkenly apologised before showing me the knife & saying he was joking, but it didn't half shake me up.

Ring the police, describe them and try and get a video.

A man big enough and angry enough to take it out on his girlfriend /wife will think nothing of lashing out at you instead!!

[Tom1312]

You'd be surprised, most people I've dealt with are happy to hit and bully a woman but wouldn't dream of hitting a man, they are all bullies or cowards to varying degrees.

Though don't forget women are just as capable of subjecting men to DV too.

Bigends said:

Works like that in England - no victim - no crime (unless there are some exceptional circumstances)

That's not how it works at all.


This would still be investigated..

Third party report. Video footage. Statement from witness.

Even if the female in question doesn't wish to report it, under NCRS it'd get crimed as an assault even if you didn't identify those involved. If you did then you'd maybe look to run a victimless prosecution as it's DV.


Don't you claim to be 'job'?

Edited by Tom1312 on Monday 25th July 11:39

Edited by Tom1312 on Monday 25th July 13:12

[vonhosen]

Rovinghawk said:

vonhosen said:

Assault = application of force to the person of another without the other's consent.

I thought that was battery. Isn't assault the threat of immediate force?

Yes, but I'm using assault as a layman's term rather than a legal one with respect to the OP's circumstances.

Of course to be more accurate still than the limited amount I had put there would have to be intent behind the application of force & it could include the threat of such force where there is the present ability to carry out that threat.

[Bigends]

Tom1312 said:

You'd be surprised, most people I've dealt with are happy to hit and bully a woman but wouldn't dream of hitting a man, they are all bullies or cowards to varying degrees.

Though don't forget women are just as capable of subjecting men to DV too.

Bigends said:

Works like that in England - no victim - no crime (unless there are some exceptional circumstances)

That's not how it works at all.


This would still be investigated..

Third party report. Video footage. Statement from witness.

Even if the female in question doesn't wish to report it, under NCRS it'd get crimed as an assault even if you didn't identify those involved. If you did then you'd maybe look to run a victimless prosecution as it's DV.


Don't you claim to be 'job'?

Edited by Tom1312 on Monday 25th July 11:39

Edited by Tom1312 on Monday 25th July 13:12

No Victim - No Crime: Where there are grounds to suspect that a ‘victim related’ crime i.e. a crime requiring victim confirmation may have taken place but no victim, (or person reasonably assumed to be acting on behalf of the victim), can immediately be found or identified, then subject to the exceptions identified at 3.6 (recording without victim confirmation), the matter must be recorded as a crime related incident until such time as the victim is located or comes forward to provide an account.

There may be exceptions to this

Recording without Victim Confirmation: The concept of ‘no victim - no crime’ is a guiding principle for ‘victim related crimes’ to deliver a consistent victim focus. However, there are two occasions where recording without victim confirmation is required:
i. Police Decide Recording is Appropriate/Necessary: If, having applied the principle outlined at 2.2 and 3.5 i, police believe there is clear evidence or significant grounds to show that a victim based crime has been committed, and that it is either necessary or appropriate to record that crime, a force must record even though the victim has declined to confirm or cannot be found. For example, there are occasions where individuals may fail to recognise that they are victims in relation to some crimes such as domestic abuse or fraud.

We'd generally record under these circs if its clear that someone involved has been badly hurt for example but wouldn't routinely record a couple having a row in the street with some pushing and shoving involved and this would remain recorded as a crime related incident

It may well be that this was recorded but I very much doubt it would have been

Edited by Bigends on Monday 25th July 15:30

[Impasse]

Would this thread exist if it were a woman attacking a man?

[theguvernor15]

Whilst out at the weekend the following happened:

Man 1 knocks into man 2. (Accidentally).
Man 2 shoves him back.
Man 1's gf gets all up in man 2's face for shoving her man back, shouting, pointing fingers in his face, then picks up a drink, throws drink over man 2 & then the glass at him.
Man 2 then grabs girl by her throat & pushes her back away from him.

Everyone jumps on man 2, scuffle ensues, man 2 starts wind-milling, man 2 gets thrown out & subsequently arrested.

In the above incident, all of them were wrong, there was also copious amounts of booze involved, however from working in the nightlife industry i see it all the time, 'generally', a lot of problems are started by girls, or are over girls.

I don't think it's right for a guy to hit or insult a girl, however, it's also not right that a woman can start something/act like a guy & not expect any sort of retaliation.

[anonymous-user]

I don't see why you'd need victim confirmation to record an assault, especially if it's DV and you have a recording. That doesn't mean you necessarily would record it, but I'm right in thinking it wouldn't get 'no crimed'.

Bigends is the crime recording manager person, so I'd defer to his knowledge since he does it day in, day out.

[Bigends]

La Liga said:

I don't see why you'd need victim confirmation to record an assault, especially if it's DV and you have a recording. That doesn't mean you necessarily would record it, but I'm right in thinking it wouldn't get 'no crimed'.

Bigends is the crime recording manager person, so I'd defer to his knowledge since he does it day in, day out.

Theres certainly nothing stopping the Police from recording this incident - just theres no requirement under the recording rules to do so. It can remain recorded as a crime related incident i.e. an incident log and still looked into.

Had the witness seen the woman /man have the living daylights beaten out of them and were then bundled away unconscious for example - then this would certainly be recorded and investigated.

We have had victimless prosecutions but I believe they are still fairly scarce. My force had the first in the UK - it was based on the number of incidents attended - each time the female party wouldnt co-operate or confirm what had gone on. Eventually it was decided enough was enough and a case prepared based on the number of times Police had attended and the evidene of injuries etc witnessed. Together with a series of Polaroids taken at each attendance, the male party was convicted without the cooperation of the victim I work with the retired DC who got the conviction home some years back

In this case theres nothing stopping enquiries being made, the female being traced and spoken to - if she confirms the assault - then record. If she says we were having a row, i'm fine and its none of your business - then a domestic record would be created with the available details and flagged to the relevant DA unit

Had this been recorded as a crime and both parties refused to co-operate then the crime would remain recorded and just closed off as investigation complete but still flagged to the relevant DA unit. It wouldnt be cancelled as a no crime

Different forces may have different recording policies in the case of such incidents

Edited by Bigends on Monday 25th July 17:03

Edited by Bigends on Monday 25th July 17:15

[TwigtheWonderkid]

theguvernor15 said:

there was also copious amounts of booze involved,

This I suspect applies in 99% of all disturbances. Drunken scumbags.

[jakesmith]

lord trumpton said:

I've made a mistake of intervening between a rowing couple - both were pissed up. Bloke started getting aggressive and woman looked scared.

I marched over and offered to intervene and was about to give the bloke a straightener when the woman started attacking me with a beer can for threatening her boyfriend.

fk 'em both.

She was possibly terrified for her life and thought that by standing up for him like that he might not beat her later.
The mentality of people who are in this type of relationship is practically impossible to understand to a normal person, try reading the relationships forum on Mumsnet if you want some insight
I'm not judging your feelings on it now and don't blame you for thinking that way - I don't think I would intervene short of calling the police, unlikely to have a positive impact and may end up getting assaulted or worse

[jdw100]

[quote=BlueHave]W

Cautionary tale.....

About 25 years ago now one of my uncles intervened in a similar situation. Lives in a small village in Surrey near a pub; saw a guy slapping a lady around outside the pub and went over to intervene.

I'd say he was quite confident in doing so as he had done quite a lot off boxing as a younger chap and saw him self (in his mid-40s then) as a handy sort of bloke.

The guy turned on him in a very violent manner, even following my uncle into his own house as my uncle tried to escape.

Broken eye socket and many other nasty cuts and bruises. My aunt had called the Police and they quickly found and arrested the assailant.

Turns out this lowlife was out on bail for assault (or parole? Can't remember which). His girlfriend refused to press charges against him for the assault that had left her with a black eye. She was soon back living with him.

Lowlife got six months for the assault on my uncle.

My uncle got; an eye that was never quite the same again. Time in hospital. £2,000 from some victim fund....and eventually a nervous breakdown and lost his job. He couldn't deal with being beaten up as it was so at odds with his own self image, developed agoraphobia as well. Had a very tough time for quite a few years.....all for doing the decent thing.

[anonymous-user]

When you're confronting a violent offender you've got to be willing and capable to go above the level they are willing to make it likely you'll come out on top. Practically you need to build in a margin of error, too. This isn't natural for decent people who don't resort to violence which is why they can be caught off guard.

[23rdian]

Don't
Get
Involved

[scubadude]

23rdian said:

Don't
Get
Involved

Yeah, great, thanks. for every 1:100 times someone doesn't get involved a victim gets raped, murdered or badly abused... most of the time its a slap and "nothing serious" (!!!) but occasionally the Lovers tiff is a tip of something really properly serious.

By all means- Don't get involved... but calling the Police might save someone who already is.


My wife saw a women screaming and slapping 7 bells out of some guy in town last Summer, he looked like a Man from a distance, luckily someone else had already called the Fuzz who arrived and dragged her off.
In the paper the next day turned out it was some drunk tourist who took a dare to happy slap a teenage boy passing by who happened to have serious learning difficulties and minor physical disabilities, he had no idea what he'd done or why and just stood there being beaten, had 50 stitches in his cheek from her nails and needed plastic surgeon to sort his lip out.

No one should be hitting anyone else irrespective of sex, age, race etc anywhere... if they choose to do it in public call the Police because you don't know the whole story.

[xjay1337]

theguvernor15 said:

I don't think it's right for a guy to hit or insult a girl, however, it's also not right that a woman can start something/act like a guy & not expect any sort of retaliation.

[Digby]

jdw100]lueHave said:

W


My uncle got; an eye that was never quite the same again. Time in hospital. £2,000 from some victim fund....and eventually a nervous breakdown and lost his job. He couldn't deal with being beaten up as it was so at odds with his own self image, developed agoraphobia as well. Had a very tough time for quite a few years.....all for doing the decent thing.

I would take that time and time again compared to simply turning a blind eye, walking away or waiting for help whilst a beating continued in front of me.

[Digby]

La Liga said:

When you're confronting a violent offender you've got to be willing and capable to go above the level they are willing to make it likely you'll come out on top. Practically you need to build in a margin of error, too. This isn't natural for decent people who don't resort to violence which is why they can be caught off guard.

Which is why more people should step up. Safety in mumbers.

[anonymous-user]

Yes, it is better to manage conflict in numbers.

[jdw100]

Digby said:

jdw100]lueHave said:

W


My uncle got; an eye that was never quite the same again. Time in hospital. £2,000 from some victim fund....and eventually a nervous breakdown and lost his job. He couldn't deal with being beaten up as it was so at odds with his own self image, developed agoraphobia as well. Had a very tough time for quite a few years.....all for doing the decent thing.

I would take that time and time again compared to simply turning a blind eye, walking away or waiting for help whilst a beating continued in front of me.

I'm not sure if I actually gave you a choice of my having a terrible ten years like my uncle in exchange for helping out someone who refused to be a witness, lied in court and backed up her a scrote boyfriend or calling the police and waiting, which you choose?

Hindsight and all that....