Taking the law into your own hands
Discussion
La Liga said:
otolith said:
La Liga said:
Yes, because it's a much better solution to have people punch people for 'low-level anti-social behaviour'.
Punching people is not where the line is drawn. You can't do anything to make them stop. And they know it.otolith said:
"Hello, 101, I'd like to report some kids making a nuisance of themselves on the train, can you tell me when I can expect to see an officer? Err, no, I don't think they've said anything offensive on Twitter."
You can't legally do anything. The police can't practically do anything. Nothing can be done, we just have to put up with it.
If they're below 10, then they can't commit and offence. If 10 and over then there are potential legal remedies such as this: http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/southport-n...You can't legally do anything. The police can't practically do anything. Nothing can be done, we just have to put up with it.
There could also be other angles to look at the matter such as why children of that age are unaccompanied and a need for social services to assess parenting / risk etc.
Realistically, nothing is going to happen. Better to learn not to care.
La Liga said:
If the guard is unable to manage / enforce it then he / she would likely summons the BTP to assist at the next practical stop. Withdrawing from the situation and allowing the guard / police to manage the matter would be better than escalating and using force unless it was necessary.
The question was, would you appreciate the help, or be reporting it?Cat said:
Digby said:
Von will be along in a second to tell you you don't know what you are talking about 
He won't because what I have posted is correct. Cat
So, these legs on the last remaining seat; would you stand for the journey or appreciate the help if someone moved them for you?
otolith said:
Unusual enough for a clampdown to make the news.
Realistically, nothing is going to happen. Better to learn not to care.
Yes, surprisingly not much will happen to a child who is putting their feet on a seat. However, if the train guard asks them not to it's likely he / she'll inform the BTP if they refused, since that's the BTP's job and they are paid for by the train companies. And as I said, there may be safeguarding issues depending on the behaviour / age. Realistically, nothing is going to happen. Better to learn not to care.
Digby said:
La Liga said:
If the guard is unable to manage / enforce it then he / she would likely summons the BTP to assist at the next practical stop. Withdrawing from the situation and allowing the guard / police to manage the matter would be better than escalating and using force unless it was necessary.
The question was, would you appreciate the help, or be reporting it?If I felt the behaviour would amount to an offence and needed action taking I'd obviously go down the correct route of speaking to the guard and going from there.
I do like how you can't really defend this scenario so keep making ones up and adapting them to try to pin people into corners. What's next? "Ok, so what if he had slightly dirty feet and looked at you funny?"
Digby said:
Not trying to pin anyone, I'm talking of real world scenarios and asking if people would appreciate help or not.
I think I asked earlier on if someone would run off to find a guard etc. If that's your answer, that's fine.
Out of interest, what if there is no guard?
It always depends on the circumstances. I'm not sure which specific scenario you're talking about, not that it really matters as it doesn't affect the original post nor the laws I adhere to. I think I asked earlier on if someone would run off to find a guard etc. If that's your answer, that's fine.
Out of interest, what if there is no guard?
Digby said:
I only mentioned the words 'Breach of the peace' and that was enough!
So, these legs on the last remaining seat; would you stand for the journey or appreciate the help if someone moved them for you?
I wouldn't appreciate someone using illegal force on another person so I could have a seat. So, these legs on the last remaining seat; would you stand for the journey or appreciate the help if someone moved them for you?
Cat
La Liga said:
Greenmantle said:
nice one von for clearing that up for us
everyone should know what to do from now on
but oh wait
Girl H - Sussex Police - IPCC ruling
6 custody sergeants with 2 taking early retirement
surely they should have known the law by what you said above.
You've mentioned this twice now but the force was not unlawful and there were no assaults. No one took early retirement (one was in Inspector, BTW). everyone should know what to do from now on
but oh wait
Girl H - Sussex Police - IPCC ruling
6 custody sergeants with 2 taking early retirement
surely they should have known the law by what you said above.
May I suggest attempting to understand the subject matter before trying to be clever?
That is carefully worded and thus is open to interpretation by the reader according to his/her world view of the police.
Paragraphs 2.11 to 2.21 of the Chapman Review (pp 25 & 26) are an interesting read on this subject - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Red Devil said:
La Liga said:
Greenmantle said:
nice one von for clearing that up for us
everyone should know what to do from now on
but oh wait
Girl H - Sussex Police - IPCC ruling
6 custody sergeants with 2 taking early retirement
surely they should have known the law by what you said above.
You've mentioned this twice now but the force was not unlawful and there were no assaults. No one took early retirement (one was in Inspector, BTW). everyone should know what to do from now on
but oh wait
Girl H - Sussex Police - IPCC ruling
6 custody sergeants with 2 taking early retirement
surely they should have known the law by what you said above.
May I suggest attempting to understand the subject matter before trying to be clever?
That is carefully worded and thus is open to interpretation by the reader according to his/her world view of the police.
Paragraphs 2.11 to 2.21 of the Chapman Review (pp 25 & 26) are an interesting read on this subject - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Even without additional knowledge, taking the interpretation they 'retired early' would be irrational since this very rarely happens because of the end-of-service weight that applies to the pension schemes those officers would be on. Medical retirement is practically the only early pension and this is very rare. The circumstances in which a pension can be taken from an officer will only practically follow a criminal prosecution, which has no relevance to retirement.
Preventing people from retiring to face misconduct proceedings which will have no impact upon them retiring after is a waste of time and money.
Cat said:
No need to give up your seat. I have no issue with getting involved however I would do so in a legal, reasonable and proportionate way.
Cat
It's what happens when that doesn't work which is obviously the main area of contention.Cat
Stand up all the way for some, get the seat for others..
Digby said:
It's what happens when that doesn't work which is obviously the main area of contention.
Stand up all the way for some, get the seat for others..
I understand the situation perfectly. You'd be prepared to use physical force against a child to ensure you got a seat. I wouldn't. Stand up all the way for some, get the seat for others..
Cat
Cat said:
I understand the situation perfectly. You'd be prepared to use physical force against a child to ensure you got a seat. I wouldn't.
Cat
I simply wouldn't be able to see someone forced to stand whilst being abused and mocked by anyone misbehaving. Age doesn't come in to it. I couldn't not do something.Cat
You would obviously stand there and watch and that's your choice, of course.
Digby said:
I simply wouldn't be able to see someone forced to stand whilst being abused and mocked by anyone misbehaving. Age doesn't come in to it. I couldn't not do something.
You would obviously stand there and watch and that's your choice, of course.
You are changing the scenario again. I've already acknowledged that abusing someone is a different situation and I would deal with that differently. You would obviously stand there and watch and that's your choice, of course.
With regard to the feet on the seat issue - You "couldn't not do something". So what would you do?
Lift the feet off the seat? What if they tensed up and that didn't work? Push the feet off? Physically lift the person from the seat? If that didn't work? Slap them? A punch? Perhaps a kick? Where would you draw the line in order to get a seat?
Cat
I'd like to thank the bib here for their contribution and education, which it is, as it stands today.
It's something us older folk struggle to comprehend sometimes, I was taught to respect my elders, brought my lad up the same.
If I didn't get out of my seat on the bus/train for an elder/woman, I got a clip round the ear off of mum. I wouldn't dream of putting my feet on seats, expecting another clip round the ear from anyone if I did.
The erosion and libralism of society is to blame, the old guard never had it all wrong...did they ?
It's something us older folk struggle to comprehend sometimes, I was taught to respect my elders, brought my lad up the same.
If I didn't get out of my seat on the bus/train for an elder/woman, I got a clip round the ear off of mum. I wouldn't dream of putting my feet on seats, expecting another clip round the ear from anyone if I did.
The erosion and libralism of society is to blame, the old guard never had it all wrong...did they ?
Cat said:
You are changing the scenario again. I've already acknowledged that abusing someone is a different situation and I would deal with that differently.
With regard to the feet on the seat issue - You "couldn't not do something". So what would you do?
Lift the feet off the seat? What if they tensed up and that didn't work? Push the feet off? Physically lift the person from the seat? If that didn't work? Slap them? A punch? Perhaps a kick? Where would you draw the line in order to get a seat?
Cat
I have no idea what I would do because I have no idea how the situation would develop.With regard to the feet on the seat issue - You "couldn't not do something". So what would you do?
Lift the feet off the seat? What if they tensed up and that didn't work? Push the feet off? Physically lift the person from the seat? If that didn't work? Slap them? A punch? Perhaps a kick? Where would you draw the line in order to get a seat?
Cat
You would ask them to move (or not?), probably get told to f
k off, leave it at that and either remain standing yourself, or leave someone else standing there and I wouldn't. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff