Taking the law into your own hands

[Cat]

Digby said:

What I find interesting is that your world appears to be perfect. There is a perfect line between the moment you say you would use force or not use force (if you ever would at all), a perfect line between when misbehaving becomes abusive or threatening behaviour, a perfect and instantly recognisable line between the moment a fist shake is just that, or common assault..

Once again you are misinterpreting what I have said in order to try and support your position. At no point have I said or suggested that there aren't grey areas nor have I claimed that these sorts of situations are always clear cut and easy. However certain situations, for example someone having their feet on a seat, are clear cut. There are no circumstances were I think it's acceptable to use physical force on someone simply because they have their feet on a seat, not even if they give you a bit of cheek when you ask them to move. That doesn't mean I think that them having their feet on the seat is acceptable or that I wouldn't intervene to deal with their behaviour. It means exactly what I stated - someone putting their feet on a seat doesn't warrant a physical intervention.

Digby said:

Quite clearly you see things (or may never have?) where you, like almost everyone else, wish those situations were not happening, but you then perfectly define and recognise every single moment, action, reaction, vocal tones, gestures and anything else you care to mention to make a perfectly informed choice as to what you will or will not do based upon the letter of the law.

Given that lawyers, the police, judges etc have a hard time and can spend months and even years trying to determine what the correct responses should or should not have been, what makes you such an 'on the spot' decision maker in the heat of the moment? Where is this perfect world where things only happen with not a single area of grey?

I would respectfully suggest that you have no idea what you are talking about. I frequently see and deal with situations and people far more challenging, dangerous and demanding than someone who won't take their feet of a seat. By and large I do this without having to resort to using force. Where the situation warrants it I have no qualms with using force and have done so more times than I can remember (and I suspect many more times than you have) however I have done so knowing that I would need to justify my actions.

I am an "'on the spot' decision maker in the heat of the moment" because I have a job that regularly puts me into rapidly changing situations where I have to make decisions under pressure, based on limited information and knowing that there will be a queue of people to second guess whatever decision I do take. When making these decisions I consider whether my actions are proportionate, legal, accountable and necessary. I'm not perfect but I get it right the vast majority of the time so I think I probably have some idea what I'm talking about.

Cat

Edited by Cat on Wednesday 3rd August 01:13

[anonymous-user]

Every generation gets all melodramatic about, 'the youth of today' and rose-tints what it was like 'when they were a boy'.

[rxe]

Cat said:

I would respectfully suggest that you have no idea what you are talking about. I frequently see and deal with situations and people far more challenging, dangerous and demanding than someone who won't take their feet of a seat. By and large I do this without having to resort to using force. Where the situation warrants it I have no qualms with using force and have done so more times than I can remember (and I suspect many more times than you have) however I have done so knowing that I would need to justify my actions.

I am an "'on the spot' decision maker in the heat of the moment" because I have a job that regularly puts me into rapidly changing situations where I have to make decisions under pressure, based on limited information and knowing that there will be a queue of people to second guess whatever decision I do take. When making these decisions I consider whether my actions are proportionate, legal, accountable and necessary. I'm not perfect but I get it right the vast majority of the time so I think I probably have some idea what I'm talking about.

Cat

Edited by Cat on Wednesday 3rd August 01:13

;

So how does it work in your example?

Cat "young man, please remove your feet from the seat in front of you"
Scrote "fk off, grand-dad"

And then? Do you have some awesome laser beam stare that takes over their minds or something? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Me? If there were seats in the carriage, I wouldn't bother. Someone else's problem. It's only a crappy train seat, it's filthy anyway. If itwas the last seat in the carriage, I'd physically move his legs and sit in the seat. If if wanted to have a pop at me, that's fine, then it would be self defence, loads of witnesses.

[anonymous-user]

rxe said:

If if wanted to have a pop at me, that's fine, then it would be self defence, loads of witnesses.

If the 8-10 year old wanted 'to have a pop at you' after you'd instigated the force

You'd probably be OK simply moving their legs in reality, but it'd still be more appropriate to inform the guard and let them do their job.

[Cat]

rxe said:

So how does it work in your example?

Cat "young man, please remove your feet from the seat in front of you"
Scrote "fk off, grand-dad"

And then? Do you have some awesome laser beam stare that takes over their minds or something? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Keep speaking to them, get the guard, walk away, who knows. At the point they start swearing at you they are potentially committing a public order offence so perhaps that would justify a different approach.

Cat

[Moulder]

Cat said:

rxe said:

So how does it work in your example?

Cat "young man, please remove your feet from the seat in front of you"
Scrote "fk off, grand-dad"

And then? Do you have some awesome laser beam stare that takes over their minds or something? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Keep speaking to them, get the guard, walk away, who knows. At the point they start swearing at you they are potentially committing a public order offence so perhaps that would justify a different approach.

Cat

I can see how this might be effective...

[Cat]

Moulder said:

Cat said:

rxe said:

So how does it work in your example?

Cat "young man, please remove your feet from the seat in front of you"
Scrote "fk off, grand-dad"

And then? Do you have some awesome laser beam stare that takes over their minds or something? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Keep speaking to them, get the guard, walk away, who knows. At the point they start swearing at you they are potentially committing a public order offence so perhaps that would justify a different approach.

Cat

I can see how this might be effective...

I'm glad you can see this. I've found myself in plenty of situations where it has appeared in that things were going to turn physical which have been resolved through dialogue. It may have the desired result, it may not, but if you don't try you'll never know.

Cat

[roofer]

Digby said:

berlintaxi said:

Oh goody, the Neanderthal knuckle dragger has managed to bash out another post.
Company for the attention seeking moron who thinks violence is the answer to everything.

Seven out of ten.

Very generous, I'd give it a 5, a ball of wool and 2 knitting needles.

[Digby]

Cat said:

I'm not perfect but I get it right the vast majority of the time

...said the old man.

And here endeth the lesson.

[Digby]

Cat said:

rxe said:

So how does it work in your example?

Cat "young man, please remove your feet from the seat in front of you"
Scrote "fk off, grand-dad"

And then? Do you have some awesome laser beam stare that takes over their minds or something? Or do you just shrug your shoulders and walk away?

Keep speaking to them, get the guard, walk away, who knows. At the point they start swearing at you they are potentially committing a public order offence so perhaps that would justify a different approach.

Cat

What would be the different approach?