Red light camera and cycle boxes

[vonhosen]

It's not ok to be straddling crossings though.

[martinbiz]

speedking31 said:

PF62 said:

... their rear wheels passed over the second stop line whilst the lights were red, so they broke the law and got a ticket.

Nonsense. They must catch a lot of artics then.

I love comments like these, just made by people who hope / believe what they say is the the case and forget about the legal facts, the nonsense bit has come from you. The law is clear, you may think rightly or wrongly (but that's another issue) that if any part of a moving vehicle crosses the stop line while red an offence is committed, and yes a lot of artics do get tickets, and why not? it's inconsiderate at best to block the entire junction, the secret is don't cross unless you have a clear exit. Amber to red is 3 seconds and the another second minimum into the red until the camera is live, so that's 4 seconds+ to clear the lights, should be ample with a clear exit.

[covboy]

martinbiz said:

I love comments like these, just made by people who hope / believe what they say is the the case and forget about the legal facts, the nonsense bit has come from you. The law is clear, you may think rightly or wrongly (but that's another issue) that if any part of a moving vehicle crosses the stop line while red an offence is committed, and yes a lot of artics do get tickets, and why not? it's inconsiderate at best to block the entire junction, the secret is don't cross unless you have a clear exit. Amber to red is 3 seconds and the another second minimum into the red until the camera is live, so that's 4 seconds+ to clear the lights, should be ample with a clear exit.

Wasn't there a "tale" a while back of a breakdown truck crossing on amber, but the car he was towing passed on red and thats the vehicle that showed up on the photograph used to prosecute ?

[Slaav]

vonhosen said:

It's not ok to be straddling crossings though.

Ooh, ooh..... Define crossings??

The number of times I straddle a zebra crossing is .... Maybe once ever! The number of times I've been caught on busy junctions w traffic lights and have not entered a box junction as my exit wasn't clear.... Loads - ste, I appear to sometimes be blocking the gaps in the traffic islands/crossings.

Traffic light controlled 'pelican crossings' - occasionally but probably too regularly! London traffic is a biatch

I would be genuinely interested in more detail Von' ?

[vonhosen]

Slaav said:

vonhosen said:

It's not ok to be straddling crossings though.

Ooh, ooh..... Define crossings??

The number of times I straddle a zebra crossing is .... Maybe once ever! The number of times I've been caught on busy junctions w traffic lights and have not entered a box junction as my exit wasn't clear.... Loads - ste, I appear to sometimes be blocking the gaps in the traffic islands/crossings.

Traffic light controlled 'pelican crossings' - occasionally but probably too regularly! London traffic is a biatch

I would be genuinely interested in more detail Von' ?

You are prohibited from stopping with any part of the vehicle within the limits of a crossing.
The limits of the crossing are displayed by those little white (or metal) squares you see at zebra & light controlled crossings.

[Vaux]

vonhosen said:

You are prohibited from stopping with any part of the vehicle within the limits of a crossing.
The limits of the crossing are displayed by those little white (or metal) squares you see at zebra & light controlled crossings.

What's the actual offence/punishment for this, as the Highway Code (192) has this as a "should" not a "MUST"?

[vonhosen]

Vaux said:

vonhosen said:

You are prohibited from stopping with any part of the vehicle within the limits of a crossing.
The limits of the crossing are displayed by those little white (or metal) squares you see at zebra & light controlled crossings.

What's the actual offence/punishment for this, as the Highway Code (192) has this as a "should" not a "MUST"?

Section IV of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 fall within the scope of Sec 25 RTRA 1984 making it an offence to contravene regulation under that section. (Section IV is the section that contains the prohibitions for overtaking, stopping in controlled area, failing to accord precedence etc).

Reg 18 (Prohibition of stopping within crossing limits) fall within Section IV of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997.

As an aside doing so with a pedestrian there on your driving test is to be marked as a serious fault resulting in test fail.

The highway code references the pertinent legislation but doesn't accurately portray it.

[Vaux]

vonhosen said:

Vaux said:

vonhosen said:

You are prohibited from stopping with any part of the vehicle within the limits of a crossing.
The limits of the crossing are displayed by those little white (or metal) squares you see at zebra & light controlled crossings.

What's the actual offence/punishment for this, as the Highway Code (192) has this as a "should" not a "MUST"?

Section IV of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 fall within the scope of Sec 25 RTRA 1984 making it an offence to contravene regulation under that section. (Section IV is the section that contains the prohibitions for overtaking, stopping in controlled area, failing to accord precedence etc).

Reg 18 (Prohibition of stopping within crossing limits) fall within Section IV of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997.

As an aside doing so with a pedestrian there on your driving test is to be marked as a serious fault resulting in test fail.

The highway code references the pertinent legislation but doesn't accurately portray it.

Thanks - I've had a google and it looks like it's three points or discretionary disqualification(!)

A follow up pedantic question please - is not the wording for stopping in the limits of the crossing the same as for stopping in the controlled area? So, with some additional exemptions, if you shouldn't stop on the actual crossing, you shouldn't stop on the zig zags either?

Or does Section IV 22(1)(a)(ii) - "the removal of any obstruction to traffic" cover temporarily queuing on the zig zags waiting for traffic to move?

[vonhosen]

Vaux said:

vonhosen said:

Vaux said:

vonhosen said:

You are prohibited from stopping with any part of the vehicle within the limits of a crossing.
The limits of the crossing are displayed by those little white (or metal) squares you see at zebra & light controlled crossings.

What's the actual offence/punishment for this, as the Highway Code (192) has this as a "should" not a "MUST"?

Section IV of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 fall within the scope of Sec 25 RTRA 1984 making it an offence to contravene regulation under that section. (Section IV is the section that contains the prohibitions for overtaking, stopping in controlled area, failing to accord precedence etc).

Reg 18 (Prohibition of stopping within crossing limits) fall within Section IV of the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997.

As an aside doing so with a pedestrian there on your driving test is to be marked as a serious fault resulting in test fail.

The highway code references the pertinent legislation but doesn't accurately portray it.

Thanks - I've had a google and it looks like it's three points or discretionary disqualification(!)

A follow up pedantic question please - is not the wording for stopping in the limits of the crossing the same as for stopping in the controlled area? So, with some additional exemptions, if you shouldn't stop on the actual crossing, you shouldn't stop on the zig zags either?

You are prohibited from stopping within the controlled area (zig zags) save from the exceptions within Reg 21 & 22 (which are exceptions for Reg 20 not reg 18).

Vaux said:

Or does Section IV 22(1)(a)(ii) - "the removal of any obstruction to traffic" cover temporarily queuing on the zig zags waiting for traffic to move?

Nope.
The purpose of that exception is that it is necessary for your vehicle to stop in the controlled area because your vehicle is necessary to remove an obstruction.
i.e. Think tow truck for broken down vehicle or JCB for a load that has been shed etc.

[Vaux]

vonhosen said:

You are prohibited from stopping within the controlled area (zig zags) save from the exceptions within Reg 21 & 22 (which are exceptions for Reg 20 not reg 18).

For clarity then(!), if I can see traffic building up on the other side of the crossing, and I can see that I would be stopping on the crossing OR the zig zags, I should stop before the zig zags?
It doesn't make much sense, but I can't see a difference between what ZPPPCRGD says for stopping on the limits of the crossing compared to the controlled area given the exceptions listed?
What am I missing, as no one is going to leave the zig zags clear in queuing traffic?

[vonhosen]

Vaux said:

vonhosen said:

You are prohibited from stopping within the controlled area (zig zags) save from the exceptions within Reg 21 & 22 (which are exceptions for Reg 20 not reg 18).

For clarity then(!), if I can see traffic building up on the other side of the crossing, and I can see that I would be stopping on the crossing OR the zig zags, I should stop before the zig zags?
It doesn't make much sense, but I can't see a difference between what ZPPPCRGD says for stopping on the limits of the crossing compared to the controlled area given the exceptions listed?
What am I missing, as no one is going to leave the zig zags clear in queuing traffic?

The law is what it is (you've read the legislation), how the Police/Councils will decide to implement it's enforcement is another matter.

[7db]

Surely that stationary traffic is beyond your control and prevents you from proceeding. 21b.

[Vaux]

7db said:

Surely that stationary traffic is beyond your control and prevents you from proceeding. 21b.

But 18 says the same thing for stopping within the limits of the crossing?
So if it's OK to use this excuse to stop on zig zags, why isn't it to stop on the crossing itself?
In the situation I described, the driver clearly has control to stop before the zig zags due to queuing traffic. Now, if a biker nipped past and took the "last space" that would be outside the control of the driver, a bit like getting caught in a YBJ (not to muddy the water).

[Red Devil]

speedking31 said:

herewego said:

Surely it's an offence to be stopped in a cycle box isn't it?

the MET says

If the traffic light changes from green to amber and you cannot safely stop before the first stop line, you may cross the line but must stop before the second stop line (Highway Code rule 178).

Myth: There’s a car in the ASL box - the driver must have committed an offence.

Sounds similar to the bx that frequently gets peddled about YBJs.

[agtlaw]

vonhosen said:

Look for 'The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002'

Reg 36 & 43 are pertinent.

Only if you have a time machine.

[Chebble]

Well, it's been two weeks, and my girlfriend hasn't received any ominous looking envelopes as of yet, so, up to now it's looking as though I didn't break any rules.