Need advice re: course of action after buying a bent car
Discussion
Is there anything in the paperwork that came with the car that indicates that the car was being sold as "Spares or repairs"?, or anything else that indicates that the car was not in roadworthy condition?
The fact that the seller told you that the car was brought in to break originally, and then stated that he thought it was too good to break, should really have indicated that the car had some more serious issues than needing minor cosmetic work to put it right - Otherwise, why would he simply sort out the cosmetics and sell it for an extra £2K?
Don't forget also that this "expert" is in the business of buying cars and breaking them up for parts, and he did mention to the OP that that is what this car was originally bought for.
OP: You need to go through any paperwork with a fine tooth-comb to see what if it states anywhere that the car was sold as a "spares or repairs" car.
The fact that the seller told you that the car was brought in to break originally, and then stated that he thought it was too good to break, should really have indicated that the car had some more serious issues than needing minor cosmetic work to put it right - Otherwise, why would he simply sort out the cosmetics and sell it for an extra £2K?
james_gt3rs said:
Not sure why the OP is getting so much stick? Buys a car from an "expert" assuring the car is fine. Then finds out the chassis is bent and gearbox trashed, not on in my book!
The seller never said the car was "fine" though did he?, according to the OP, all he stated was that it was "too good to break" - Not the same thing at all!Don't forget also that this "expert" is in the business of buying cars and breaking them up for parts, and he did mention to the OP that that is what this car was originally bought for.
OP: You need to go through any paperwork with a fine tooth-comb to see what if it states anywhere that the car was sold as a "spares or repairs" car.
Note: Traders aren't obliged to disclose accident damage? And sadly HPI is not perfect and reliant on cars being reported for Cat C/D, etc.
Devils advocate - are you looking for cheap cars, bottom end of trade, lean on the trader to fix them, do further work and then flip them out after 6-9 months as a personal car? Just to ask the obvious, are you in effect trading (but putting the car in your name)? You have had more cars than many, many people even on PH.
Sorry if this sounds rude, but PH is naturally cynical.
Devils advocate - are you looking for cheap cars, bottom end of trade, lean on the trader to fix them, do further work and then flip them out after 6-9 months as a personal car? Just to ask the obvious, are you in effect trading (but putting the car in your name)? You have had more cars than many, many people even on PH.
Sorry if this sounds rude, but PH is naturally cynical.
4rephill said:
OP: You need to go through any paperwork with a fine tooth-comb to see what if it states anywhere that the car was sold as a "spares or repairs" car.
I recall (I may be mistaken) that for spares or repairs, trader should really ensure the car isn't driven away, but trailered.OP, what does the invoice say? This may help your case (at least for the gearbox, maybe).
I will have to go through it but I don't recall there being anything about the condition on it.
Vaud, absolutely not. Current car I've had 18 months with no intention of selling. The E46 we had alongside it was here for around a year. Sold it £500 cheaper than we bought it and I'd done things like a full service, sorted the bushes, fixed the leaking rocker cover gasket etc.
I've an M3 Evo project car. That has a few issues but I've never spoken to the dealer since the day I bought it. Old car, has reasonable old car issues. Won't be finished until next summer.
Previous to that was a Merc SLK. Had the gearbox rebuilt at a recommended specialist. Had it a year or so, sold at a loss.
MR2 Roadster before that, replaced the engine as I bought it knowing it needed doing. Did lots of small upgrades like bushes, gearshift bushes, etc. Sold for a slight loss.
Had another Subaru before that. Sold that at a loss after upgrading the brakes to Brembos, induction kit, installing a DAB head unit, a JDM STI quick steering rack. Bought the current Subaru after this at the main dealer and have run it alongside the Merc, E46 and now the latest Subaru.
So no, not a trader. And none of those cars have involved speaking to the seller about anything.
I only ask advice when I feel a line has been crossed. I usually pay up and have things sorted myself the majority of the time, as time has proven.
Vaud, absolutely not. Current car I've had 18 months with no intention of selling. The E46 we had alongside it was here for around a year. Sold it £500 cheaper than we bought it and I'd done things like a full service, sorted the bushes, fixed the leaking rocker cover gasket etc.
I've an M3 Evo project car. That has a few issues but I've never spoken to the dealer since the day I bought it. Old car, has reasonable old car issues. Won't be finished until next summer.
Previous to that was a Merc SLK. Had the gearbox rebuilt at a recommended specialist. Had it a year or so, sold at a loss.
MR2 Roadster before that, replaced the engine as I bought it knowing it needed doing. Did lots of small upgrades like bushes, gearshift bushes, etc. Sold for a slight loss.
Had another Subaru before that. Sold that at a loss after upgrading the brakes to Brembos, induction kit, installing a DAB head unit, a JDM STI quick steering rack. Bought the current Subaru after this at the main dealer and have run it alongside the Merc, E46 and now the latest Subaru.
So no, not a trader. And none of those cars have involved speaking to the seller about anything.
I only ask advice when I feel a line has been crossed. I usually pay up and have things sorted myself the majority of the time, as time has proven.
Edited by TroubledSoul on Thursday 25th August 22:34
Vaud said:
Fair enough, forgive my cynicism.
Not a problem. I've absolutely no issue with being questioned. It's only the attacks that upset me. I'm a weirdo. That's the main issue here. I'm very OCD. That's why I spend a lot putting things right. I was even willing to accept it when a friend said it looked like it had had a smash and I thought the gearbox only crunched between 4th/5th. I was miffed, sure. But I took it on the chin. It's only finding out the issues are far more significant that has irked me this time.
TroubledSoul said:
If you struggle to engage a gear would you suggest that's fully working? Or are you just trolling?
Thanks to those that have offered help and useful advice. I'm going to find out what this will all cost to put right and will see how the seller reacts when I send him a quote. I'll update the thread when I have more info. Cheers
No, not trolling, but helping rehearse your argument. A sticky change at high revs does not indicate the gearbox is not working. "You've driven the car for six weeks Sir. You've even loaned it to your better half to use on a motorsport activity. How did you manage, or even contemplate this if the gearbox wasn't working?"Thanks to those that have offered help and useful advice. I'm going to find out what this will all cost to put right and will see how the seller reacts when I send him a quote. I'll update the thread when I have more info. Cheers
Why did the dealer state specifically a 'fully working gearbox'/'no problems with the gearbox'? Is gearbox failure a common issue with the car of this type? What else was specified as "fully working", or was it just the 'box? Or was this a recollection of a conversation? Post the advertisement would be useful.
You didn't spot it as a 'banana'. Why should the dealer? All the checks you did didn't identify any of the issues. Again, as I've said before, wording is crucial: did the representation state 'to the best of our knowledge' or as fact?
You bought the car at a price that, at your admission, was 25% less than that expected for a 'good' car of this type/age. You bought that car from someone who had it to break. What did you expect? Or, more specifically, what is to be expected of a car bought from a breaker at the consideration of 25% less than market value?
I'm asking some questions that you'll need to be able to answer.
Good luck, and I hope all works out well for you. Please keep us posted.
sorry if im coming across as malicious but you are buying high performance cars at the lower end of the market, M3, 535d etc, the only way to cover yourself without any worry is approved used or new, buying from ebay or a local independant or dare i say a breaker's yard is not going to end well, I wouldn't mention a hill climb event either as competiton use tends to negate any good will
andymc said:
you do have form?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
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I knew I recognised the user name, in all honesty I wouldn't let you out at night let alone to buy a car
Nothing like learning from your mistakes is there http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
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I knew I recognised the user name, in all honesty I wouldn't let you out at night let alone to buy a car
QuickQuack said:
cmaguire said:
Nice to see lots sticking the boot in. I think a lot of people seem to revel in other's misfortune in some smug sort of way. Keep up the good work.
As to the car. If the guy took it to break, then unless it's a special edition (Type r etc) which you haven't mentioned then he'll have paid significantly less than £6500. I expect he paid nearer £3000 and didn't look too hard to find fault with it but probably knows it's got something to hide.
The gearbox will strengthen your case but the fact the car is bent is the biggest issue. If it were me I would go to a specialist I trust (there are plenty of specialists around as you probably know) and get a valuation based on current knowledge. I would then go back to the seller for a solution.
If he doesn't play ball I would consult a solicitor.
As to the car. If the guy took it to break, then unless it's a special edition (Type r etc) which you haven't mentioned then he'll have paid significantly less than £6500. I expect he paid nearer £3000 and didn't look too hard to find fault with it but probably knows it's got something to hide.
The gearbox will strengthen your case but the fact the car is bent is the biggest issue. If it were me I would go to a specialist I trust (there are plenty of specialists around as you probably know) and get a valuation based on current knowledge. I would then go back to the seller for a solution.
If he doesn't play ball I would consult a solicitor.
+1 It's blindingly obvious that it's a trade sale. I don't think you would have much difficulty in getting your way in court if it comes to it, especially as the car was advertised specifically as having a "fully working gearbox" and it blatantly isn't a fully working gearbox. Good luck and let us know how you get on.While the purchase and inspection process (and all those previous threads) suggests significant naivety on the OP's behalf, the fact that the seller is likely to be classified as a trader (on reasonable probability by a judge - that's all that matters) means that his backside is probably covered.
OP - STOP SPENDING MONEY ON THE CAR. If you're really unhappy, you can reject the car (read CRA for your statutory rights). If you've had it less than 6mths you must get a specialist to prove in writing that it is one (or more) of the three things listed below, and get a solicitor to draw you up a letter (unless you feel confident enough to do it yourself using a template) of rejection.
If the car has significant chassis damage that hasn't been correctly repaired, you're throwing good money after bad to keep it on the road.
CRA2015 reasons for rejection.
1. “Of a satisfactory quality”
2. “Fit for purpose”
3. “As described”
A car with significant and poorly-repaired chassis damage fails on points 1 and 2, and if the gearbox was described as working perfectly (and you have proof of that in an advert or correspondence) it also fails on point 3.
Good luck. But, based on the amount of trouble your past posts suggest, please avoid buying cheap cars in future.
If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Take someone who knows their way around cars when you buy in future.
EDITED to amend SOGA to CRA.
Edited by C70R on Friday 26th August 11:05
Consumer Rights Act 2015 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/sectio...
Satisfactory Quality is based on what a "reasonable person" would consider based "on price or other consideration".
The term satisfactory quality does not include anything "where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or"
We haven't seen the advert, but evidently the gearbox was working sufficiently well for the OP to use the car for 6 weeks including letting Mrs OP participate in a motorsport event in it.
The car was "too good to be broken" by a breaker. Hardly an endorsement of quality, and gives the "reasonable person" a level of expectation.
Satisfactory Quality is based on what a "reasonable person" would consider based "on price or other consideration".
The term satisfactory quality does not include anything "where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or"
We haven't seen the advert, but evidently the gearbox was working sufficiently well for the OP to use the car for 6 weeks including letting Mrs OP participate in a motorsport event in it.
The car was "too good to be broken" by a breaker. Hardly an endorsement of quality, and gives the "reasonable person" a level of expectation.
V8LM said:
Consumer Rights Act 2015 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/sectio...
Satisfactory Quality is based on what a "reasonable person" would consider based "on price or other consideration".
The term satisfactory quality does not include anything "where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or"
We haven't seen the advert, but evidently the gearbox was working sufficiently well for the OP to use the car for 6 weeks including letting Mrs OP participate in a motorsport event in it.
The car was "too good to be broken" by a breaker. Hardly an endorsement of quality, and gives the "reasonable person" a level of expectation.
And:Satisfactory Quality is based on what a "reasonable person" would consider based "on price or other consideration".
The term satisfactory quality does not include anything "where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or"
We haven't seen the advert, but evidently the gearbox was working sufficiently well for the OP to use the car for 6 weeks including letting Mrs OP participate in a motorsport event in it.
The car was "too good to be broken" by a breaker. Hardly an endorsement of quality, and gives the "reasonable person" a level of expectation.
(b)the price or other consideration for the goods (if relevant)
Very relevant IMO. 2k cheaper than it should have been.
Ive thought about this, the fact youve used it for a motorsport event is going to stuff you in the event that you go legal.
I would suck this one up and move on.
And without being rude I think you need protecting from yourself, find someone who knows what they are doing to accompany you on your shed buying trips, even pay someone, its going to save you money and heartache.
Good luck
POORCARDEALER said:
Ive thought about this, the fact youve used it for a motorsport event is going to stuff you in the event that you go legal.
I've thought about this too, and you're completely wrong. Showing yourself up to indeed be a very "poor" car dealer.What about "an instruction day at the local hillclimb school" implies that the car was used for a "motorsport event"?
In your infinite experience/wisdom, which law is the dealer going to use to try and weasel out of his responsibility on that basis?
C70R said:
I've thought about this too, and you're completely wrong. Showing yourself up to indeed be a very "poor" car dealer.
What about "an instruction day at the local hillclimb school" implies that the car was used for a "motorsport event"?
In your infinite experience/wisdom, which law is the dealer going to use to try and weasel out of his responsibility on that basis?
Not aimed at me, but I don't see why a car would be covered. Being practical, compare it to a brand new car and a top end manufacturer (Audi):What about "an instruction day at the local hillclimb school" implies that the car was used for a "motorsport event"?
In your infinite experience/wisdom, which law is the dealer going to use to try and weasel out of his responsibility on that basis?
"If the vehicle has been used for competitions of any kind, racing, pacemaking, rallies, road use including track days, for any form of hire or reward and usage for or by driving schools."
I can't see a county court judge seeing that it was reasonable use for a car. The average person does not use a car at a instruction day for hill climbs.
Vaud said:
C70R said:
I've thought about this too, and you're completely wrong. Showing yourself up to indeed be a very "poor" car dealer.
What about "an instruction day at the local hillclimb school" implies that the car was used for a "motorsport event"?
In your infinite experience/wisdom, which law is the dealer going to use to try and weasel out of his responsibility on that basis?
Not aimed at me, but I don't see why a car would be covered. Being practical, compare it to a brand new car and a top end manufacturer (Audi):What about "an instruction day at the local hillclimb school" implies that the car was used for a "motorsport event"?
In your infinite experience/wisdom, which law is the dealer going to use to try and weasel out of his responsibility on that basis?
"If the vehicle has been used for competitions of any kind, racing, pacemaking, rallies, road use including track days, for any form of hire or reward and usage for or by driving schools."
I can't see a county court judge seeing that it was reasonable use for a car. The average person does not use a car at a instruction day for hill climbs.
Which of "competitions of any kind, racing, pacemaking, rallies, road use including track days, for any form of hire or reward and usage for or by driving schools" does someone using their car to receive driving instruction at a hillclimb venue come under?
Do you think that the CRA has the same terms as a new Audi warranty? If so, I'd be keen to see where you found that.
C70R said:
I almost see where you're coming from, but I'm curious.
Which of "competitions of any kind, racing, pacemaking, rallies, road use including track days, for any form of hire or reward and usage for or by driving schools" does someone using their car to receive driving instruction at a hillclimb venue come under?
Do you think that the CRA has the same terms as a new Audi warranty? If so, I'd be keen to see where you found that.
You can't define every scenario. County court judges are human beings. Which of "competitions of any kind, racing, pacemaking, rallies, road use including track days, for any form of hire or reward and usage for or by driving schools" does someone using their car to receive driving instruction at a hillclimb venue come under?
Do you think that the CRA has the same terms as a new Audi warranty? If so, I'd be keen to see where you found that.
No idea on CRA. It doesn't cover every single nuance. The above terms are seem well tested in court and look to be common across many manufacturers and would seem too be fair.
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