Another Caveat Emptor Thread - with a slight twist
Discussion
I have read all the threads, the cars being sold then breaking down on the driveway or buyers having to leg it across a motorway because their new purchase broke down in the fast lane. I also read all the replies - buyer beware, caveat emptor, sod them - it's their problem now, not yours...
Well my problem is similar, but is a little different. A week ago I purchased an Audi S5 for over 17 grand from a private seller. I took it out for a test drive and all seemed fine with the car. We haggled a bit and settled on a price we were both happy with. Last Saturday I went to pick it up, transferred the money and got the usual 'sold as seen' receipt from the owner.
When I was nearly home I hear a very loud warning alarm and the center console flashes up with "Gearbox Malfunction". The car loses all power for a minute before sorting itself out and continuing as normal - for a few minutes. It happened 3 further times before I managed to limp onto the driveway feeling pretty shaken up. Thankfully it hadn't happened in the fast lane of the A3 as the weather was pretty poor with heavy rain and bad visibility that day!
So far, so 'caveat emptor' I can hear you all saying. However, modern cars are a lot more intelligent than old ones. I spoke to a mechanic who worked for Audi for 16 years and he was in my town that evening. He popped round and plugged his laptop into the car to check out the error codes. It's not an uncommon problem for this year of cars with Audi having a service bulletin out for it. Essentially the whole mechatronic unit needs to be replaced at a cost of circa £4k. The car believes the clutch is about to fail so it cuts all torque from the engine in order to protect the clutch - not great when you are driving.
Anyway, I test drove the car on the 1st September, and the problem had happened 4 times on the way home. The error report on the car's computer said it has happened a total of 14 times with the first occurrence happening on the 18th August. Yep, the guy had the error 10 times before he sold it knowing how dangerous a problem it can be. He was even happy to let me drive off on along drive with my young kids in the car! I specifically asked him during the test drive if he'd had any other problems with it and he said no.
Hopefully we can agree the guy is a scumbag, but do I have any legal rights? In the advert he described the car as 'running beautifully' which it turns out was a lie - but is maybe a bit subjective. I had someone with my on the test drive that heard him say it had no problems but I guess that is our word against his - and may not count for anything anyway. But I guess the biggest hope I have is that the car was sold in an unroadworthy condition that I can prove he was aware of prior to the sale.
Would be good to hear some thoughts.
Well my problem is similar, but is a little different. A week ago I purchased an Audi S5 for over 17 grand from a private seller. I took it out for a test drive and all seemed fine with the car. We haggled a bit and settled on a price we were both happy with. Last Saturday I went to pick it up, transferred the money and got the usual 'sold as seen' receipt from the owner.
When I was nearly home I hear a very loud warning alarm and the center console flashes up with "Gearbox Malfunction". The car loses all power for a minute before sorting itself out and continuing as normal - for a few minutes. It happened 3 further times before I managed to limp onto the driveway feeling pretty shaken up. Thankfully it hadn't happened in the fast lane of the A3 as the weather was pretty poor with heavy rain and bad visibility that day!
So far, so 'caveat emptor' I can hear you all saying. However, modern cars are a lot more intelligent than old ones. I spoke to a mechanic who worked for Audi for 16 years and he was in my town that evening. He popped round and plugged his laptop into the car to check out the error codes. It's not an uncommon problem for this year of cars with Audi having a service bulletin out for it. Essentially the whole mechatronic unit needs to be replaced at a cost of circa £4k. The car believes the clutch is about to fail so it cuts all torque from the engine in order to protect the clutch - not great when you are driving.
Anyway, I test drove the car on the 1st September, and the problem had happened 4 times on the way home. The error report on the car's computer said it has happened a total of 14 times with the first occurrence happening on the 18th August. Yep, the guy had the error 10 times before he sold it knowing how dangerous a problem it can be. He was even happy to let me drive off on along drive with my young kids in the car! I specifically asked him during the test drive if he'd had any other problems with it and he said no.
Hopefully we can agree the guy is a scumbag, but do I have any legal rights? In the advert he described the car as 'running beautifully' which it turns out was a lie - but is maybe a bit subjective. I had someone with my on the test drive that heard him say it had no problems but I guess that is our word against his - and may not count for anything anyway. But I guess the biggest hope I have is that the car was sold in an unroadworthy condition that I can prove he was aware of prior to the sale.
Would be good to hear some thoughts.
I'm optimistic for you OP as I have heard it is illegal (and possibly criminal) to sell an unroadworthy car without the buyer being aware of its condition. Hopefully somebody with a decent grasp of the law in this area will give you some advice. Sounds like you can prove he knew about the fault.
chriswg said:
In the advert he described the car as 'running beautifully'
I specifically asked him during the test drive if he'd had any other problems with it and he said no.
IANAL but I believe this mis-representation by the seller gives you a case. However, how you prove that exchange took place. I will be interested to hear from those who really know their stuff..I specifically asked him during the test drive if he'd had any other problems with it and he said no.
Mileage and price are probably relevant. if its done 350k miles then a failing clutch is perhaps to expected...
Edited by OverSteery on Monday 12th September 08:32
The vendor's reply was, "Yeah well, they are expensive car's to maintain. You have no rights as a private car buyer. I suggest you pay to get it fixed or get rid of it yourself".
Obviously as a I have morals I couldn't even consider selling a car with such a horrible problem.
It's a 60 plate with 56k on the clock so really shouldn't be failing!
And yeah, in future I'd be taking the dude with the laptop with me, although a 'smart' vendor could easily have the error codes cleared before a potential buyer comes round. It also flagged up an error with the door sensors, you are supposed to be able to lock the car by touching a sensor on the handle when you get out, but that doesn't work either.
Obviously as a I have morals I couldn't even consider selling a car with such a horrible problem.
It's a 60 plate with 56k on the clock so really shouldn't be failing!
And yeah, in future I'd be taking the dude with the laptop with me, although a 'smart' vendor could easily have the error codes cleared before a potential buyer comes round. It also flagged up an error with the door sensors, you are supposed to be able to lock the car by touching a sensor on the handle when you get out, but that doesn't work either.
chriswg said:
The vendor's reply was, "Yeah well, they are expensive car's to maintain. You have no rights as a private car buyer. I suggest you pay to get it fixed or get rid of it yourself".
Whilst the guy is obviously a reprehensible 
, I suspect this one is going down to experience.Maybe not in this case, but some owners are so dippy that they may not realise the severity of an issue and think a quick software reset will solve all of their issues. It's possible that the previous owner had this error a few times, didn't really understand it, reset it and thought he would get rid before something "big" comes up.
For £4k, I would certainly look at a claim - you have some evidence that the error had occurred while he owned the car and (I assume) that said error had been cleared using VAGCom? The difficulty will be proving he knew about it in the way you describe it - i.e. that it causes the car to go into limp mode etc. but why not spend a few hundred calling his bluff?
For £4k, I would certainly look at a claim - you have some evidence that the error had occurred while he owned the car and (I assume) that said error had been cleared using VAGCom? The difficulty will be proving he knew about it in the way you describe it - i.e. that it causes the car to go into limp mode etc. but why not spend a few hundred calling his bluff?
Jefferson Steelflex said:
Maybe not in this case, but some owners are so dippy that they may not realise the severity of an issue and think a quick software reset will solve all of their issues. It's possible that the previous owner had this error a few times, didn't really understand it, reset it and thought he would get rid before something "big" comes up.
For £4k, I would certainly look at a claim - you have some evidence that the error had occurred while he owned the car and (I assume) that said error had been cleared using VAGCom? The difficulty will be proving he knew about it in the way you describe it - i.e. that it causes the car to go into limp mode etc. but why not spend a few hundred calling his bluff?
And then what?For £4k, I would certainly look at a claim - you have some evidence that the error had occurred while he owned the car and (I assume) that said error had been cleared using VAGCom? The difficulty will be proving he knew about it in the way you describe it - i.e. that it causes the car to go into limp mode etc. but why not spend a few hundred calling his bluff?
It's only worth pursuing people that have money.
hornetrider said:
chriswg said:
The vendor's reply was, "Yeah well, they are expensive car's to maintain. You have no rights as a private car buyer. I suggest you pay to get it fixed or get rid of it yourself".
Whilst the guy is obviously a reprehensible , I suspect this one is going down to experience.Bit cheeky selling it privately rather than sticking it in an auction to get rid.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
you have some evidence that the error had occurred while he owned the car and (I assume) that said error had been cleared using VAGCom? The difficulty will be proving he knew about it in the way you describe it - i.e. that it causes the car to go into limp mode etc. but why not spend a few hundred calling his bluff?
The error codes were still on there, they hadn't been cleared at all. Hoping this link works?
The problem had clearly happened to him multiple times. There is a chance his missus was driving it at the time but I'm fairly sure the first thing she would have done is pulled over and called him. It's an instant loss of power with a very loud beep coming from the dashboard. It's not possible to miss.
You've tried to talk to him, reasonably I assume, and he's told you to jog on.
Next approach is to send a letter with that picture included and quotes from his advert ("running beautifully") stating that he has mis-represented the car and should cover the costs of the repairs, or give you a full refund and arrange for collection of the car. Give him 7 days to confirm which, then if no luck then I'd move straight on to a money claim online.
To me, from the information provided, it is 100% obvious he was aware of this and has covered it up.
Next approach is to send a letter with that picture included and quotes from his advert ("running beautifully") stating that he has mis-represented the car and should cover the costs of the repairs, or give you a full refund and arrange for collection of the car. Give him 7 days to confirm which, then if no luck then I'd move straight on to a money claim online.
To me, from the information provided, it is 100% obvious he was aware of this and has covered it up.
You bought car privately, knowing full well that buying a car privately is not the same as buying from a dealer as there is no warranty, and no doubt you were very pleased with your purchase as this was considerably cheaper than buying the same car from a dealer.
Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
chriswg said:
Jefferson Steelflex said:
you have some evidence that the error had occurred while he owned the car and (I assume) that said error had been cleared using VAGCom? The difficulty will be proving he knew about it in the way you describe it - i.e. that it causes the car to go into limp mode etc. but why not spend a few hundred calling his bluff?
The error codes were still on there, they hadn't been cleared at all. Hoping this link works?The problem had clearly happened to him multiple times. There is a chance his missus was driving it at the time but I'm fairly sure the first thing she would have done is pulled over and called him. It's an instant loss of power with a very loud beep coming from the dashboard. It's not possible to miss.
My thoughts go out to you; you're in an awful place right now. I have a different attitude to this from some. I utterly detest b
ds like this and will go to whatever lengths to get recompense, as long as you keep it legal. This is clearly criminal fraud. The VAG system stores the ECU history and keeps it there unless it is deleted. It is clear from the printout you posted that there is undeniable evidence the fault was already in the vehicle at the time of sale and he was fully aware of it. He led you, falsely, to believe that the car was in roadworthy condition and took a substantial sum of money from you based on this: that is fraud and misrepresentation by any standards.I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
Now based on the codes in the printout, there is a strong possibility that you can repair the transmission with a simple service. Due to the power output of these cars, the transmission fluid is placed under tremendous pressure and frequently gets to a point where it breaks down under load when hot. This causes extreme running temperatures prompting the ECU to shut down the system. If the clutch was completely worn out the car would not drive at all. But the fault is clearly temperature related.
Over the years I have saved many a car from disaster by carrying out a service on the transmission with high quality fluid and a new filter. The AA brought in a Mercedes that had actually stopped driving completely and the dealership had quoted the owner something like 5 grand for a new transmission. When I drained the fluid it was literally like old engine oil it was so contaminated! I took the sump off and let everything drain overnight. New synthetic fluid and a service kit and it drove perfectly. That was 2 years ago and it's still going strong.
It's worth a try and if it works you can sue the scumbag for the price of the service he should have carried out before selling it.
Best of luck.
J
rallycross said:
You bought car privately, knowing full well that buying a car privately is not the same as buying from a dealer as there is no warranty, and no doubt you were very pleased with your purchase as this was considerably cheaper than buying the same car from a dealer.
Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
Well with an attitude like that I certainly wouldn't buy a car from you as you think this kind of deception is acceptable.Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
J
rallycross said:
You bought car privately, knowing full well that buying a car privately is not the same as buying from a dealer as there is no warranty, and no doubt you were very pleased with your purchase as this was considerably cheaper than buying the same car from a dealer.
Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
BullsUnfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
t.Sold a dodgy S5 recently, have we?
jith said:
This is clearly criminal fraud.
I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
Make up your mind. I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
If it is criminal fraud then contact the police. If it is a civil issue then instruct your solicitor.
It is the latter.
OP, there is nothing to be lost in writing a letter before action based on misrepresentation, it will cost you 10 mins, a download from the Citizens Advice Bureau and a registered delivery.
It might not get you anywhere, but it is low cost.
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