Another Caveat Emptor Thread - with a slight twist
Discussion
KevinCamaroSS said:
Not if he has totally misrepresented the car and this can be proved.
If it can be proved. A big if, sadly. And, if you win you can actually get the money at all, without spending another bundle. Another big if.Small claims has low costs, so is worth a punt. The OP might be lucky.
eldar said:
If it can be proved. A big if, sadly. And, if you win you can actually get the money at all, without spending another bundle. Another big if.
Small claims has low costs, so is worth a punt. The OP might be lucky.
Indeed. It's going to be a situation where the court needs to believe the balance of probability based on technical 'evidence', rather than witnesses etc.Small claims has low costs, so is worth a punt. The OP might be lucky.
In other news, do we know what the OP is actually looking for? I only ask because SCC is £10k maximum.
To the OP have you spoken to these guys for a quote?
http://www.bristolgearboxcentre.com/
recommended on this painful thread about Audi g/box problems
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.bristolgearboxcentre.com/
recommended on this painful thread about Audi g/box problems
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
C70R said:
In other news, do we know what the OP is actually looking for? I only ask because SCC is £10k maximum.
I'm just looking for the price of the repair. If this gearbox service fixes the problem (unlikely) then I won't bother with a legal case.
If the PCB or mechatronic unit needs replacing then I will be looking for between £2.5k and £4k to cover the cost of the replacement parts and labour.
I have already suggested the seller can get his own quote from his own preferred garage if he wants (no reply). I'll also check out ecutesting and the mentioned garage in Bristol to hear their thoughts.
I would also probably (grudgingly) accept an offer to cover half of the costs at mediation if it's on the table.
POORCARDEALER said:
rallycross said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Barring the ONE often quoted case where a private buyer sued a private seller and won, can anyone else give examples of this happening where the buyer won the case?
Good question and no answers yet probably because there is only that one odd example.The reason why it seems that all of the private buyer v private seller cases fail is because the vast majority of the ones I've seen on SP&L over the years have been fatally flawed.
They are of the ilk that the buyer two weeks later takes their 10 year old car to the main dealer who tells them the car 'needs' things doing and the buyer believes that he has some kind of right to expect that the seller pays. Or, by fluke, the engine blows up on the way home. Unfortunate, untimely, but not the seller's fault.
Yes, of course caveat emptor applies in all cases - including this one. However, whilst you can keep shtum about the faults you know about, you cannot misrepresent the goods you are selling. Yes, usually, a private buyer is not expected to be able to take as rote the comments a private seller takes, as the seller is not an expert and especially if they are 'puff' such as 'good runner', etc.
However, this case is crucially different in that:
a) The seller was warned and must have known that the car was certainly NOT 'running beautifully' when he made that statement, and:
b) There is documentary evidence of the above.
That's the key difference. Usually of course the above simply does not happen, and even if the buyer suspects the seller knew he was selling a dog and was lying about it, that it cannot be proven.
eldar said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Not if he has totally misrepresented the car and this can be proved.
If it can be proved. A big if, sadly. And, if you win you can actually get the money at all, without spending another bundle. Another big if.Small claims has low costs, so is worth a punt. The OP might be lucky.
ker needs dealing withGeneral Fluff said:
chriswg said:
Lurking Lawyer said:
OP, it's not cut and dried but it's worth exploring further. A court would want expert evidence on what the datalogging evidence actually means and whether those error messages would have had to have been displayed on the dash.
It's worth checking your home contents insurance to see whether it includes legal expenses insurance and, if it does, give your insurer a call to see whether it covers a misrepresentation claim.
Funnily enough I just finished reading up about a similar case that all hinged on the reliability of the expert witness. I'm hoping this mechanic would be sufficient as he is impartial and worked for Audi as a senior mechanic for 16 years.It's worth checking your home contents insurance to see whether it includes legal expenses insurance and, if it does, give your insurer a call to see whether it covers a misrepresentation claim.
Great shout on the home insurance cover, I'll look into that now. Even if it doesn't, I'll be wanting to go to court to put my evidence forward.
A couple of people have mentioned getting cheaper quote's for the repair. A lot depends on the inspection next week during the service. If the mechatronic unit needs to be replaced, they need to be custom ordered from Germany and set up to match my exact car. That is going to cost £1.2k + VAT (£1,440). There is then a whole load of smaller parts that will need to be replaced as part of the process, plus approximately 20 hours of labour. £3k is possible, but it's not going to be any less unless I can get some serious mates rates on the labour part.
If it's 'just' the PCB that needs replacing then it could be half that. But, if I pay £1500 to replace the PCB and it turns out the mechatronic needs replacing after all that is £1500 down the drain and I'll still need to pay the £3k-£4k.
t his pants and cough up 'something'Burwood said:
And no offence but people aren't comprehending the burden of proof. It is not absolute. In my view the seller will st his pants and cough up 'something'
I do comprehend the burden of proof thanks, the point was is there definitely a direct correlation between a fault registered on the ECU and an obvious signal to the driver? Apparently there is, though OP may need an expert to confirm this to the judge if it goes that far. Otherwise seller just says there was no alarm or physical symptom and then it's one's word against the other.t his pants and cough up 'something'General Fluff said:
Otherwise seller just says there was no alarm or physical symptom and then it's one's word against the other.
The number percentage of people that relish a court appearance is very few - especially when the evidence is against them. Additionally, very few normal people who know they are 'bang to rights' happily plan to stand in front of a judge and blatantly lie. (Cue plenty of PHers providing anecdotal evidence otherwise...)
The most likely scenario here is that the buyer is burying his head hoping that the OP will go away and stop contacting him. He will do that until the point that the consequences for ignoring the OP are too great - for example, when a warning of legal action or court papers arrive.
At that point he has the option of accepting that he is going to end up at court, and the very uncomfortable situation of lying to a judge, with the very real scenario that a judge will call him out on that lie, or he comes to the negotiating table.
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 15th September 15:29
JustinP1 said:
General Fluff said:
Otherwise seller just says there was no alarm or physical symptom and then it's one's word against the other.
The number percentage of people that relish a court appearance is very few - especially when the evidence is against them. Additionally, very few normal people who know they are 'bang to rights' happily plan to stand in front of a judge and blatantly lie. (Cue plenty of PHers providing anecdotal evidence otherwise...)
The most likely scenario here is that the buyer is burying his head hoping that the OP will go away and stop contacting him. He will do that until the point that the consequences for ignoring the OP are too great - for example, when a warning of legal action or court papers arrive.
At that point he has the option of accepting that he is going to end up at court, and the very uncomfortable situation of lying to a judge, with the very real scenario that a judge will call him out on that lie, or he comes to the negotiating table.
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 15th September 15:29
d asap OP.Burwood said:
JustinP1 said:
General Fluff said:
Otherwise seller just says there was no alarm or physical symptom and then it's one's word against the other.
The number percentage of people that relish a court appearance is very few - especially when the evidence is against them. Additionally, very few normal people who know they are 'bang to rights' happily plan to stand in front of a judge and blatantly lie. (Cue plenty of PHers providing anecdotal evidence otherwise...)
The most likely scenario here is that the buyer is burying his head hoping that the OP will go away and stop contacting him. He will do that until the point that the consequences for ignoring the OP are too great - for example, when a warning of legal action or court papers arrive.
At that point he has the option of accepting that he is going to end up at court, and the very uncomfortable situation of lying to a judge, with the very real scenario that a judge will call him out on that lie, or he comes to the negotiating table.
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 15th September 15:29
d asap OP.I had two people fold when either a LBA or SCC action arrived on their doorstep - suddenly became incredibly communicative and offered to pay up, no quivbles - it was especially satisfying telling one of them that because I'd had to initiate a SC action before he saw sense, he also owed me those costs too. He paid up!
Burwood said:
On the subject of Proof-the test is on the balance of probability. In other words more likely than not. If the code registered 10 times in the few weeks before Sale then he knew. Small claims is exactly what i would do. The wker needs dealing with
How well versed are SCC judges(?) in the intricacies of ECU operation. I suspect not much. Are expert witnesses allowed?ker needs dealing withI suspect that proving that the ECU registered an error, the error was actually displayed and the seller himself saw it, and why the error cleared 10 times may be difficult.
Agreed the seller is a t
t, and the OP should go for it. With the right level of expectation. eldar said:
How well versed are SCC judges(?) in the intricacies of ECU operation. I suspect not much. Are expert witnesses allowed?
Generally done via a witness statement. However, are we 100% sure that the OP could find someone who could a) convince the SCC of his 'expertise' and b) uncategorically state that the seller would have been aware of the fault?I'm not so sure...
andymc said:
its shameful that a car of this value needs the box replacing so soon
Err its an Audi S5, I think my old company car had the gear box repaired/ replaced 3 times in the 1st 2 years of its constantly breaking down good for nothing life.It was less reliable than my old Lancia Delta Integrale...
VW/ Audi are not the cars they once were, in our fleet the 2 golfs and my Audi were the least reliable and most costly to run.
janesmith1950 said:
Has he got any money and or will he comply with judgment? Hollow victories, wins without rewards.
He had a brand new Evoque sitting on the driveway and at least £17k in his bank account that I paid him so I would think he can afford to pay.I'm seriosuly considering the complete gearbox replacement via the Bristol garage mentioned earlier. £2.5k for a more reliable (post 2012) refurbished box is quite appealing and probably cheaper than just replacing the mechatronic unit or PCB.
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