Another Caveat Emptor Thread - with a slight twist
Discussion
I see to buy a similar S5 can from an approved Audi dealer (same year, roughly same mileage/spec etc) is asking £20,000. Given that it is £3k difference than what you paid, I'd chalk it up to experience and get the thing fixed.
Of course this seller is scum but I think the more this is dragged on and you potentially getting nowhere the more you'll resent the car and it will be tainted - I know it will always be to some degree.
A friend of mine bought an A6 3.2 V6 privately a few years ago and found that the seller had blanked off the engine management light with black tape - it wasn't until he was cleaning the binnacle he found it over the plastic screen; not actually on the dial itself. The seller admitted that he had put it there as he was fed up looking at it as the garage couldn't clear it and it
'was nothing' luckily it turned out to be the emissions rather than any mechanical fault but it just highlights the depths that some private sellers go to - you really do have to ask why is this person selling this car.
Of course this seller is scum but I think the more this is dragged on and you potentially getting nowhere the more you'll resent the car and it will be tainted - I know it will always be to some degree.
A friend of mine bought an A6 3.2 V6 privately a few years ago and found that the seller had blanked off the engine management light with black tape - it wasn't until he was cleaning the binnacle he found it over the plastic screen; not actually on the dial itself. The seller admitted that he had put it there as he was fed up looking at it as the garage couldn't clear it and it
'was nothing' luckily it turned out to be the emissions rather than any mechanical fault but it just highlights the depths that some private sellers go to - you really do have to ask why is this person selling this car.
Burwood said:
and just another thought-where was the car serviced previously. Tried calling that garage to ask if they diagnosed anything of interest?
I gave them a call straight away in the hope they would say oh yeah, he brought it to us a few weeks ago and we told him it was knackered. Sadly they didn't.I suspect the order of events was:
- Gears started feeling a bit clunky - especially dropping to 1st when coming to a standstill.
- Googles problem - uh oh, better sell it quickly.
- Sticks advert on Autotrader.
- Car gets worse, gearbox malfunction warnings start coming.
- I take it for a test drive, no warnings / gearbox feels okay.
- I make an offer which is accepted, he thanks his lucky stars and laughs all the way to the bank.
- I get numerous warnings on the way home so contact the seller.
- Sorry mate, sold as seen. Fix it or get rid like I did.
The seller described the car as 'running beautifully', which it was when you left his drive.
Surely anything that happens after leaving the private sellers drive is nothing to do with the seller, it's no longer his to worry about. Otherwise, how long is the seller obliged to warrant the car as 'a beautiful runner'...5 minutes, 5 hours, a day, a week?
Most people wouldn't have access to the stored ECU faults. The seller's mate may have been driving when the faults occurred [and he may have forgotten to mention it to the owner].
It's a s
tty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?
Surely anything that happens after leaving the private sellers drive is nothing to do with the seller, it's no longer his to worry about. Otherwise, how long is the seller obliged to warrant the car as 'a beautiful runner'...5 minutes, 5 hours, a day, a week?
Most people wouldn't have access to the stored ECU faults. The seller's mate may have been driving when the faults occurred [and he may have forgotten to mention it to the owner].
It's a s
tty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
It's a stty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?
The civil burden of proof is the balance of probabilities - or to show that it's more likely than not that what the OP contends is correct. Or, to put it another way, 51% or better.tty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?A car described as "running beautifully" with evidence to show that the seller was likely to have been aware of error messages having been thrown up indicating that there was a recurrent problem. With the greatest of respect, subject to suitable expert evidence to confirm how the ECU reader works and what would have been visible to the driver as error messages on the dash, it's not hard to see a judge arriving at the conclusion that it's more likely than not that the seller did in fact know that there was an issue, and that it was therefore incorrect to describe the car as "running beautifully".
I'm not saying the OP WILL win. I am, however, saying that I can see quite clearly how he COULD win.
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
The seller described the car as 'running beautifully', which it was when you left his drive.
Surely anything that happens after leaving the private sellers drive is nothing to do with the seller, it's no longer his to worry about. Otherwise, how long is the seller obliged to warrant the car as 'a beautiful runner'...5 minutes, 5 hours, a day, a week?
Most people wouldn't have access to the stored ECU faults. The seller's mate may have been driving when the faults occurred [and he may have forgotten to mention it to the owner].
It's a stty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?
^ThisSurely anything that happens after leaving the private sellers drive is nothing to do with the seller, it's no longer his to worry about. Otherwise, how long is the seller obliged to warrant the car as 'a beautiful runner'...5 minutes, 5 hours, a day, a week?
Most people wouldn't have access to the stored ECU faults. The seller's mate may have been driving when the faults occurred [and he may have forgotten to mention it to the owner].
It's a s
tty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?Private sale, sold as seen, no warranty.
It's a crap situation but this is the risk you take buying a 6 year old car privately with no warranty.
Same car from a daler, inspected with a warranty would be £3k more.
Helicopter123 said:
^This
Private sale, sold as seen, no warranty.
It's a crap situation but this is the risk you take buying a 6 year old car privately with no warranty.
Same car from a daler, inspected with a warranty would be £3k more.
So if I sell you a 6 year old 'original mint condition' car with 20,000 miles on the clock with full dealer service history and after you buy it you find that I've done a cut and shut in my garage with a donor knackered 200k engine and you fail to note that the full service history is not in the glovebox before you leave as it doesn't exist...Private sale, sold as seen, no warranty.
It's a crap situation but this is the risk you take buying a 6 year old car privately with no warranty.
Same car from a daler, inspected with a warranty would be £3k more.
...then as long as I write 'sold as seen' on a piece of paper for you, everything's fine and dandy?
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
The seller described the car as 'running beautifully', which it was when you left his drive.
Surely anything that happens after leaving the private sellers drive is nothing to do with the seller, it's no longer his to worry about. Otherwise, how long is the seller obliged to warrant the car as 'a beautiful runner'...5 minutes, 5 hours, a day, a week?
Most people wouldn't have access to the stored ECU faults. The seller's mate may have been driving when the faults occurred [and he may have forgotten to mention it to the owner].
It's a stty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?
Almost everything you say is wrong. On balance it looks like the seller intentionally misrepresented the car. The OP asking him when inspecting 'any issues during your ownership' to which this wSurely anything that happens after leaving the private sellers drive is nothing to do with the seller, it's no longer his to worry about. Otherwise, how long is the seller obliged to warrant the car as 'a beautiful runner'...5 minutes, 5 hours, a day, a week?
Most people wouldn't have access to the stored ECU faults. The seller's mate may have been driving when the faults occurred [and he may have forgotten to mention it to the owner].
It's a s
tty situation - but I can't think how you could possibly win a case against the vendor?ker replied 'no, none whatsoever, a sweet car, bullet proof. We will see what a judge has to say.OP, I may be mistaken but there is a 'Discovery' process via small claims. You may need to ask for permission from the court but if allowed (obviously after the case is filed), id be asking questions to fill in some blanks. He would be very daring to lie. When he first listed the Autotrader Advert. Did he get the car inspected by any garage or have the codes read. My own views based on experience is that if the first code manifested on 18 August and the car was listed on or before the 23rd then on balance id say he is in a spot of bother. If he asserts a date well before the codes popped up he would be required to submit banking evidence of the wire to AutoTrader.
In the very last he will need a solicitor to defend this case so lets hope he coughs up the 3k repair on the basis he will be on the hook for a lot more.
Do you know for sure the car wasn't advertised on PH?
In the very last he will need a solicitor to defend this case so lets hope he coughs up the 3k repair on the basis he will be on the hook for a lot more.
Do you know for sure the car wasn't advertised on PH?
Edited by Burwood on Tuesday 20th September 10:43
Lurking Lawyer said:
Helicopter123 said:
Private sale, sold as seen, no warranty.
Have you even bothered reading the thread before offering us the benefit of your "wisdom"? No, I didn't think so....
C70R said:
Lurking Lawyer said:
Helicopter123 said:
Private sale, sold as seen, no warranty.
Have you even bothered reading the thread before offering us the benefit of your "wisdom"? No, I didn't think so....
don't ever place warm food in the fridge. It must be cold or else it's lethal
no MOT = no insurance
You lose the VAT the minute you drive off the dealership.
all BS my FIL spouts and 'bush expert' advice found on PH.
The law is not some mysterious set of rules/doctrine. It can be complex at times but most is based on fairness and what most people would find reasonable. The bottom line is if you make false statements you can be held to account. Some on here may disagree but that's not the issue. Anyone recall the guy who purchased a 997 GT3 from an OPC which had been totalled, reshelled and sold as a mint no accident car when the dealer knew it was crash repaired. This thread has nothing to do with private vs dealer. It has everything to do with lying and misrepresenting or inducing someone to buy based on false statements. Was it likely the OP was influenced by a glowing description and a seller that verbally gave 100% assurances that the car was a keeper. Yes. Were those statements likely to have been given knowing the true condition. Yes.
One thing puzzles me about the fault condition. It produced errors stored in the ECU.
Was a warning produced in the car - if so what status, red or yellow, and was a warning message displayed as well? How is the visible element reset - does it take manual intervention or just go away with an engine restart? What does the handbook say?
Bottom line, would the vendor know that the fault was there, or could it be missed, misinterpreted or considered trivial?
Was a warning produced in the car - if so what status, red or yellow, and was a warning message displayed as well? How is the visible element reset - does it take manual intervention or just go away with an engine restart? What does the handbook say?
Bottom line, would the vendor know that the fault was there, or could it be missed, misinterpreted or considered trivial?
Just out of interest, from my layman's perspective the evidence seems to hinge on the ten codes stored in the ECU which would have meant the previous owner knew of the fault.
But the error did not occur during the test drive or for quite a way on the trip home. And these gearboxes are known to be a bit rubbish, in fact someone has also posted that a fluid change will often fix it as it is a temperature related problem rather than a hardware failure.
For the lawyers, how is the court likely to react to the seller saying "yeah, I had one or two instances where the car flashed a warning up, but it was only after I'd driven the car <fast/hard/euphemism of choice> and the internet said it was a known problem with these gearboxes when they get hot, so I figured it wasn't a major issue. After all, it didn't happen at all during the test drive when we were driving sensibly, which proves it was only when these car are old and get thrashed that they complain but get better as soon as you stopped driving like a wally".
But the error did not occur during the test drive or for quite a way on the trip home. And these gearboxes are known to be a bit rubbish, in fact someone has also posted that a fluid change will often fix it as it is a temperature related problem rather than a hardware failure.
For the lawyers, how is the court likely to react to the seller saying "yeah, I had one or two instances where the car flashed a warning up, but it was only after I'd driven the car <fast/hard/euphemism of choice> and the internet said it was a known problem with these gearboxes when they get hot, so I figured it wasn't a major issue. After all, it didn't happen at all during the test drive when we were driving sensibly, which proves it was only when these car are old and get thrashed that they complain but get better as soon as you stopped driving like a wally".
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