Another Caveat Emptor Thread - with a slight twist
Discussion
The OP needs to do three things;
1. spend £100 getting your solicitor to ping matey boy a letter; you might scare him into meeting you part way on the costs which I don't think is unreasonable as it does look like he's deliberately tried to mug you Off
2. Remind yourself that anything you get will be a bonus because, irritating as it is, it was a private sale and you could have checked out the fault codes pre purchase (or walked if fibbing-boy wouldn't let you)
3. get in touch with a good indie who will charge you a fraction of the £4k to fix the fault
1. spend £100 getting your solicitor to ping matey boy a letter; you might scare him into meeting you part way on the costs which I don't think is unreasonable as it does look like he's deliberately tried to mug you Off
2. Remind yourself that anything you get will be a bonus because, irritating as it is, it was a private sale and you could have checked out the fault codes pre purchase (or walked if fibbing-boy wouldn't let you)
3. get in touch with a good indie who will charge you a fraction of the £4k to fix the fault
Thanks for the comments guys.
I have booked it in for a transmission service next week with the independent Audi mechanic guy. Looking at the Audi threads that deal with this problem it looks like a low chance that it will fix it, but worth trying in the first case. In most instances the PCB develops a fault, or a sensor rail inside the mechatronic unit fail. Both are big jobs at £3k and £4k respectively.
I'll double check when I get home but I think I remember seeing the transmission oil and filter change boxes ticked in the service record book at 48k and 55k miles. I now suspect that they weren't actually done but the (non-Audi) garage that did the service ticked the boxes anyway. I'll ask my mechanic to confirm if they have been done recently. If not it's another misconception on the sale.
I'll look up some of the legal templates suggested and send one to him and see what he says. I've asked him for an email address but he's not given it to me yet.
If I need a solicitor can anyone recommend anyone from personal experience?
I have booked it in for a transmission service next week with the independent Audi mechanic guy. Looking at the Audi threads that deal with this problem it looks like a low chance that it will fix it, but worth trying in the first case. In most instances the PCB develops a fault, or a sensor rail inside the mechatronic unit fail. Both are big jobs at £3k and £4k respectively.
I'll double check when I get home but I think I remember seeing the transmission oil and filter change boxes ticked in the service record book at 48k and 55k miles. I now suspect that they weren't actually done but the (non-Audi) garage that did the service ticked the boxes anyway. I'll ask my mechanic to confirm if they have been done recently. If not it's another misconception on the sale.
I'll look up some of the legal templates suggested and send one to him and see what he says. I've asked him for an email address but he's not given it to me yet.
If I need a solicitor can anyone recommend anyone from personal experience?
Vaud said:
jith said:
This is clearly criminal fraud.
I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
Make up your mind. I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
If it is criminal fraud then contact the police. If it is a civil issue then instruct your solicitor.
It is the latter.
OP, there is nothing to be lost in writing a letter before action based on misrepresentation, it will cost you 10 mins, a download from the Citizens Advice Bureau and a registered delivery.
It might not get you anywhere, but it is low cost.
J
rallycross said:
You bought car privately, knowing full well that buying a car privately is not the same as buying from a dealer as there is no warranty, and no doubt you were very pleased with your purchase as this was considerably cheaper than buying the same car from a dealer.
Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
A combative post from someone who appears to have little understanding of the law in this area. Deliberate falsification and untruths are not acceptable morally or legally. Unfortunately some private sellers are chancers hence you need to check what you are buying (especially things like Mechatronic gearboxes) as once you drive off its too late to complain.
There is no twist to your story, much as you might be hoping there is one for your benefit.
You should have bought one from a dealer if you were not prepared for this sort of problem, or paid for an inspection by someone who knows what they are doing when buying complex used cars.
Buy privately = buy cheap = you take your chances and hope it all works out nicely. If not then be prepared to spend some more £££.
the dealer "warranty" (if offered) you mention probably wouldn't cover this anyway as it appears a defect at the point of sale. The dealer would be responsible for a suitable resolution, I doubt he could palm it off on a 3rd party warranty company.
Your recommendation that OP could/should have taken more diligence in pre-purchase inspection is better targeted.
Edited by OverSteery on Monday 12th September 11:08
chriswg said:
I'll double check when I get home but I think I remember seeing the transmission oil and filter change boxes ticked in the service record book at 48k and 55k miles. I now suspect that they weren't actually done but the (non-Audi) garage that did the service ticked the boxes anyway. I'll ask my mechanic to confirm if they have been done recently. If not it's another misconception on the sale.
Even if it wasn't done you can't blame the seller for that, they could just claim the garage mugged them off.Interesting that it had the trans oil and filter changed twice so close together though, if it wasn't due on age maybe it was done to try and clear the fault. Was the second change done after or around the time the fault codes started showing up?
chriswg, sorry to hear about the devious ar5ehole who sold you the car.
A few years ago I used http://www.ecutesting.com/ to sort an Audi mechatronic issue on my wife's 3.2 DSG TT. I couldn't find the S5 on their website but they're certainly worth a call. Fractions of the cost involved at a main stealer and the fix comes with a lifetime guarantee. The TT mechatronic was £225 back then and £250 today; you have to add removal and refitting costs but total was still under £450 iirc.
I've also used them to sort the ABS/traction control on my E92 BMW.....£250 + removal and refitting. £2100 from BMW main dealer, £1850 from BMW specialist indie.
A few years ago I used http://www.ecutesting.com/ to sort an Audi mechatronic issue on my wife's 3.2 DSG TT. I couldn't find the S5 on their website but they're certainly worth a call. Fractions of the cost involved at a main stealer and the fix comes with a lifetime guarantee. The TT mechatronic was £225 back then and £250 today; you have to add removal and refitting costs but total was still under £450 iirc.
I've also used them to sort the ABS/traction control on my E92 BMW.....£250 + removal and refitting. £2100 from BMW main dealer, £1850 from BMW specialist indie.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 12th September 12:11
hornetrider said:
chriswg said:
The vendor's reply was, "Yeah well, they are expensive car's to maintain. You have no rights as a private car buyer. I suggest you pay to get it fixed or get rid of it yourself".
Whilst the guy is obviously a reprehensible 
, I suspect this one is going down to experience."? Odd logic.Perhaps if OP had used a degree of foresight, and taken along his mate and fancy diagnostics machine, he wouldn't be finding himself in this situation.
It's a relatively expensive and complex car - which has potential to come with relatively expensive and complex problems. Anyone with an ounce of common sense know that buying these cars privately opens you up to HUGE potential risk. Therefore, sensible people take precautions to mitigate this. OP chose not to take precautions, and he's now suffering the consequences.
It's a tough lesson to learn, but one that many car enthusiasts will encounter at some point.
jith said:
Chris,
My thoughts go out to you; you're in an awful place right now. I have a different attitude to this from some. I utterly detest bds like this and will go to whatever lengths to get recompense, as long as you keep it legal. This is clearly criminal fraud. The VAG system stores the ECU history and keeps it there unless it is deleted. It is clear from the printout you posted that there is undeniable evidence the fault was already in the vehicle at the time of sale and he was fully aware of it. He led you, falsely, to believe that the car was in roadworthy condition and took a substantial sum of money from you based on this: that is fraud and misrepresentation by any standards.
I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
No it isn't. Don't misconstrue your over-emotional opinion with the application of law.My thoughts go out to you; you're in an awful place right now. I have a different attitude to this from some. I utterly detest b
ds like this and will go to whatever lengths to get recompense, as long as you keep it legal. This is clearly criminal fraud. The VAG system stores the ECU history and keeps it there unless it is deleted. It is clear from the printout you posted that there is undeniable evidence the fault was already in the vehicle at the time of sale and he was fully aware of it. He led you, falsely, to believe that the car was in roadworthy condition and took a substantial sum of money from you based on this: that is fraud and misrepresentation by any standards.I would go straight to a lawyer and get a letter off to him threatening court action on the basis of this evidence.
You might not like it, but the chances of the OP getting any recourse from this are incredibly slim. The law is based around structure and precedent. While there's one example (from MSE) of a buyer successfully pursuing a private seller for financial recourse, there are many more that demonstrate that the court almost always places burden of responsibility is on the buyer.
If the OP can afford to chuck away a few grand on legal fees (on the premise that it's hugely unlikely he will win), then there's no harm in studying the MSE case in detail and instructing a very good, specialist solicitor. You might get exceptionally lucky and persuade the court that the precedent is sufficient to provide a judgement - but it's hugely unlikely.
Remember, the standard of Small Claims Court (we're not at the ECHR here) is to persuade judgement based on the "balance of probability". "He said/She said" cases tend to go against the claimant for a good reason.
OP - do please keep the thread updated with any progress. Good luck.
Edited by C70R on Monday 12th September 11:21
StuTheGrouch said:
You've tried to talk to him, reasonably I assume, and he's told you to jog on.
Next approach is to send a letter with that picture included and quotes from his advert ("running beautifully") stating that he has mis-represented the car and should cover the costs of the repairs, or give you a full refund and arrange for collection of the car. Give him 7 days to confirm which, then if no luck then I'd move straight on to a money claim online.
To me, from the information provided, it is 100% obvious he was aware of this and has covered it up.
Agree - you need to offer (in some recordable way) the guy a chance to refund you or pay for the repairs.Next approach is to send a letter with that picture included and quotes from his advert ("running beautifully") stating that he has mis-represented the car and should cover the costs of the repairs, or give you a full refund and arrange for collection of the car. Give him 7 days to confirm which, then if no luck then I'd move straight on to a money claim online.
To me, from the information provided, it is 100% obvious he was aware of this and has covered it up.
Of course he won't, so for the amount involved it's worth trying a Small Claims Case. The outcome of these cases is close to random, but you might win by default anyway. If you win you still have the task of getting the money out of him.
See this fairly bizarre tale: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php... - in this case the buyer had sold the car on and the seller was ordered to pay compensation based on his own estimate of the likely repair cost.
As above, send him a polite letter, noting the advert and your conversation and noting that he must have been aware as you have a record of the 10 previous times that this fault arose.
Therefore he misrepresented a material matter and in the absence of a resolution you will have no alternative but to take him to court.
Therefore he misrepresented a material matter and in the absence of a resolution you will have no alternative but to take him to court.
Crackie said:
chriswg sorry to hear about the devious ar5ehole who sold you the car.
I used http://www.ecutesting.com/ to sort an Audi mechatronic issue on my wife's 3.2 DSG TT £250..... I couldn't find the S5 on their website but they're certainly worth a call. Fractions of the cost involved at a main stealer and the fix comes with a lifetime guarantee.
ECU testing are very good worth a try helpful on the phone as well.I used http://www.ecutesting.com/ to sort an Audi mechatronic issue on my wife's 3.2 DSG TT £250..... I couldn't find the S5 on their website but they're certainly worth a call. Fractions of the cost involved at a main stealer and the fix comes with a lifetime guarantee.
C70R said:
No it isn't. Don't misconstrue your over-emotional opinion with the application of law.
You might not like it, but the chances of the OP getting any recourse from this are incredibly slim. The law is based around structure and precedent. While there's one example (from MSE) of a buyer successfully pursuing a private seller for financial recourse, there are many more that demonstrate that the court almost always places burden of responsibility is on the buyer.
If the OP can afford to chuck away a few grand on legal fees (on the premise that it's hugely unlikely he will win), then there's no harm in studying the MSE case in detail and instructing a very good, specialist solicitor. You might get exceptionally lucky and persuade the court that the precedent is sufficient to provide a judgement - but it's hugely unlikely.
Remember, the standard of Small Claims Court (we're not at the ECHR here) is to persuade judgement based on the "balance of probability". "He said/She said" cases tend to go against the claimant for a good reason.
OP - do please keep the thread updated with any progress. Good luck.
Quite. The CPS provides guidance:You might not like it, but the chances of the OP getting any recourse from this are incredibly slim. The law is based around structure and precedent. While there's one example (from MSE) of a buyer successfully pursuing a private seller for financial recourse, there are many more that demonstrate that the court almost always places burden of responsibility is on the buyer.
If the OP can afford to chuck away a few grand on legal fees (on the premise that it's hugely unlikely he will win), then there's no harm in studying the MSE case in detail and instructing a very good, specialist solicitor. You might get exceptionally lucky and persuade the court that the precedent is sufficient to provide a judgement - but it's hugely unlikely.
Remember, the standard of Small Claims Court (we're not at the ECHR here) is to persuade judgement based on the "balance of probability". "He said/She said" cases tend to go against the claimant for a good reason.
OP - do please keep the thread updated with any progress. Good luck.
Edited by C70R on Monday 12th September 11:21
The borderline between criminal and civil liability
The borderline between criminal and civil liability is likely to be an issue in alleged Fraud Act offences particularly those under Section 1. Prosecutors should bear in mind that the principle of caveat emptor applies and should consider whether civil proceedings or the regulatory regime that applies to advertising and other commercial activities might be more appropriate. Not every advertising puff should lead to a criminal conviction but it is also the case that fraudsters prey on the vulnerable.
Prosecutors should guard against the criminal law being used as a debt collection agency or to protect the commercial interests of companies and organisations. However, prosecutors should also remain alert to the fact that such organisations can become the focus of serious and organised criminal offending.
The criminal law should not be used to protect private confidences.
jith said:
Well with an attitude like that I certainly wouldn't buy a car from you as you think this kind of deception is acceptable.
J
Where did I say its acceptable? Of course its not, its a horrible situation and I hope the OP can find a cost effective fix.J
I have been buying cars for nearly 30 years and have been stitched up a few times by unscrupulous sellers, that is sadly what you have to be prepared for when buying privately. Take precautions in the process, starting with take everything the seller is telling you as being potentially false and check it out for yourself or pay someone to check it for you before agreeing a price.
As for people claiming its fraud you need get a grip on reality. If you chose to go and buy a car privately you are taking a risk, buy from a dealer if you cant get your head round this fact.
Edited by rallycross on Monday 12th September 11:32
rallycross said:
As for people claiming its fraud you need get a grip on reality. If you chose to go and buy a car privately you are taking a risk, buy from a dealer if you cant get your head round this fact.
It's probably not sales puff (if the adverts stated it was running very well). It's probably misrepresentation for which the remedy is letter before action, probably independent assessment, mediation and then county court?C70R said:
If the OP can afford to chuck away a few grand on legal fees (on the premise that it's hugely unlikely he will win), then there's no harm in studying the MSE case in detail and instructing a very good, specialist solicitor. You might get exceptionally lucky and persuade the court that the precedent is sufficient to provide a judgement - but it's hugely unlikely.
It's not a precedent and I certainly wouldn't throw a few grand at a solicitor, but for the £100 or so that a Small Claims case can be lodged for, it might be worth a punt.rallycross said:
As for people claiming its fraud you need get a grip on reality. If you chose to go and buy a car privately you are taking a risk, buy from a dealer if you cant get your head round this fact.
It's a whole bunch of illegal things, but proving it to criminal standard of proof is the tricky bit.Sheepshanks said:
C70R said:
If the OP can afford to chuck away a few grand on legal fees (on the premise that it's hugely unlikely he will win), then there's no harm in studying the MSE case in detail and instructing a very good, specialist solicitor. You might get exceptionally lucky and persuade the court that the precedent is sufficient to provide a judgement - but it's hugely unlikely.
It's not a precedent and I certainly wouldn't throw a few grand at a solicitor, but for the £100 or so that a Small Claims case can be lodged for, it might be worth a punt.OP, why did you not check it out properly before buying it, if the £4k is a lot to you (it is to me) £17k is shed loads, more that any car I've ever bought! And a mere google of "Audi S5 problems" tells you all you need to know that this is sadly not uncommon.
I hope you get somewhere as the seller may well have known about the issue, maybe not, but you may get a clue as to how pricey was the car? If for example you got near to trade for it, why did he not trade it? It may be he genuinely didnt know and thought he would sell it quick and cheap for maybe a grand more than dealer offered him and if it didn't sell, chop it in. But if he knew, then he'd surely just chop it in.
My point is, just because your service fella says that is what the ECU says, doesn't a mean it is 100% correct, and b that the seller actually knew, maybe it was momentary and he had no clue. Also, when did he put car up for sale, if it was 19th Aug, then you may have a point, if it was for sale in July, maybe not.
If I were you, I'd concentrate on getting it fixed without getting arse raped, £4k is a joke, you MUST be able to find somewhere cheaper than that. And next time, get someone to plug the laptop in BEFORE you buy it, or even call their bluff and ask before you go out to see it if it ok to plug your code reader into it, if the answer is you cannot, then save the trip!
Good luck sorting it, nice cars but I'd not but any Auto Audi! Everyone I know who has had one has had major issues.
I hope you get somewhere as the seller may well have known about the issue, maybe not, but you may get a clue as to how pricey was the car? If for example you got near to trade for it, why did he not trade it? It may be he genuinely didnt know and thought he would sell it quick and cheap for maybe a grand more than dealer offered him and if it didn't sell, chop it in. But if he knew, then he'd surely just chop it in.
My point is, just because your service fella says that is what the ECU says, doesn't a mean it is 100% correct, and b that the seller actually knew, maybe it was momentary and he had no clue. Also, when did he put car up for sale, if it was 19th Aug, then you may have a point, if it was for sale in July, maybe not.
If I were you, I'd concentrate on getting it fixed without getting arse raped, £4k is a joke, you MUST be able to find somewhere cheaper than that. And next time, get someone to plug the laptop in BEFORE you buy it, or even call their bluff and ask before you go out to see it if it ok to plug your code reader into it, if the answer is you cannot, then save the trip!
Good luck sorting it, nice cars but I'd not but any Auto Audi! Everyone I know who has had one has had major issues.
s3fella said:
OP, why did you not check it out properly before buying it, if the £4k is a lot to you (it is to me) £17k is shed loads, more that any car I've ever bought! And a mere google of "Audi S5 problems" tells you all you need to know that this is sadly not uncommon.
I hope you get somewhere as the seller may well have known about the issue, maybe not, but you may get a clue as to how pricey was the car? If for example you got near to trade for it, why did he not trade it? It may be he genuinely didnt know and thought he would sell it quick and cheap for maybe a grand more than dealer offered him and if it didn't sell, chop it in. But if he knew, then he'd surely just chop it in.
My point is, just because your service fella says that is what the ECU says, doesn't a mean it is 100% correct, and b that the seller actually knew, maybe it was momentary and he had no clue. Also, when did he put car up for sale, if it was 19th Aug, then you may have a point, if it was for sale in July, maybe not.
If I were you, I'd concentrate on getting it fixed without getting arse raped, £4k is a joke, you MUST be able to find somewhere cheaper than that. And next time, get someone to plug the laptop in BEFORE you buy it, or even call their bluff and ask before you go out to see it if it ok to plug your code reader into it, if the answer is you cannot, then save the trip!
Good luck sorting it, nice cars but I'd not but any Auto Audi! Everyone I know who has had one has had major issues.
£17,000 isn't cheap for one. There's numerous cars in the classifieds for similar money from dealer and private sales. I hope you get somewhere as the seller may well have known about the issue, maybe not, but you may get a clue as to how pricey was the car? If for example you got near to trade for it, why did he not trade it? It may be he genuinely didnt know and thought he would sell it quick and cheap for maybe a grand more than dealer offered him and if it didn't sell, chop it in. But if he knew, then he'd surely just chop it in.
My point is, just because your service fella says that is what the ECU says, doesn't a mean it is 100% correct, and b that the seller actually knew, maybe it was momentary and he had no clue. Also, when did he put car up for sale, if it was 19th Aug, then you may have a point, if it was for sale in July, maybe not.
If I were you, I'd concentrate on getting it fixed without getting arse raped, £4k is a joke, you MUST be able to find somewhere cheaper than that. And next time, get someone to plug the laptop in BEFORE you buy it, or even call their bluff and ask before you go out to see it if it ok to plug your code reader into it, if the answer is you cannot, then save the trip!
Good luck sorting it, nice cars but I'd not but any Auto Audi! Everyone I know who has had one has had major issues.
I hope you get this resolved OP. I appreciate there's a risk buying used cars, but it does appear the seller knew exactly what he was doing.
There's far too many issues with modern auto boxes.
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