Another Caveat Emptor Thread - with a slight twist
Discussion
JustinP1 said:
OP, I don't want to be harsh, but playing Devil's Advocate here...
It's a fair point and I'm pretty sure he is clued up.The reason for the solicitors letter is to give a legal base to the claim, it will make sure everything is laid out properly.
If it goes to mediation or small claims court I will sort that all out myself, but I will have the benefit of being able to say - I sent a legal letter in the first instance outlining the grounds for the claim and the reasons behind it. I can provide this letter as evidence to the judge that I tried to do things the right way without having to wast the courts time.
It could be £180 wasted (as my wife thinks) but it gets the ball rolling as this is an area I have no experience in either.
I managed to get a video clip of the error in action. This happened after driving home from work with no problems (circa 15 mins), a quick 5 min rest, then another 5 minute drive. I was stopped at a roundabout and as I pulled away the beeping started, as you can see I'm only giving it minimal power at low speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuQZKSmSSJ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuQZKSmSSJ4
Just to clear up a couple of points.
I've not driven the car very much at all, and never on any fast roads.
Between starting this thread and taking it to the garage I didn't drive it at all. After the mechanic looked at it and changed the brake pads and topped up the oil I drove it home - no errors. A couple of days later I drove it to work to see if the message would come back, this is about a 5 mile journey on 30mph and 40mph roads - no message (dare I hope something the garage did has accidentally fixed it?). I drove it home the same route after work - no message (getting my hopes up now) so I decided to take my son to football (taking the back roads) - boom, after 5 mins the errors start going mental.
My son was in the passenger seat so I got him to video the error occurring. It triggered every time I put any sort of pressure on the accelerator. After 5 or 6 times I managed to nurse the car up to maybe 40mph and the error went away for the rest of the journey. It came back on the way home too but this time on a slightly hilly road, I was lucky to get it up the hills as any sort of torque put the engine into limp mode.
I've not driven it since and won't do until the repair on the 11th.
I've not driven the car very much at all, and never on any fast roads.
Between starting this thread and taking it to the garage I didn't drive it at all. After the mechanic looked at it and changed the brake pads and topped up the oil I drove it home - no errors. A couple of days later I drove it to work to see if the message would come back, this is about a 5 mile journey on 30mph and 40mph roads - no message (dare I hope something the garage did has accidentally fixed it?). I drove it home the same route after work - no message (getting my hopes up now) so I decided to take my son to football (taking the back roads) - boom, after 5 mins the errors start going mental.
My son was in the passenger seat so I got him to video the error occurring. It triggered every time I put any sort of pressure on the accelerator. After 5 or 6 times I managed to nurse the car up to maybe 40mph and the error went away for the rest of the journey. It came back on the way home too but this time on a slightly hilly road, I was lucky to get it up the hills as any sort of torque put the engine into limp mode.
I've not driven it since and won't do until the repair on the 11th.
So, a quick update.
Letter from solicitor to seller:
27 September 2016
Dear Sir
Our Client: XXX
Vehicle: Audi S5
We act for XXX, who has instructed us in connection with a contract with you in relation to the purchase of the above vehicle.
The Contract
After seeing an advertisement placed in Auto Trader by you for the sale of the above vehicle, our client arranged with you to view the vehicle on 1 September 2016. Your advertisement described the vehicle as follows:
“Excellent condition throughout. APR software modified for over 1 year, runs beautifully”.
Our client test drove the vehicle on 1 September 2016, during which you confirmed that the vehicle had “no problems”. Following the test drive our client agreed to purchase the car for the sum of £17,200 and paid you a deposit of £X.
On 3 September 2016 our client paid you the balance of the contract sum and collected the vehicle.
Vehicle faults
Following the sale to our client, it became clear during the drive home that there was a serious problem with the vehicle. Our client initially heard a very loud warning alarm and the centre console flashed up with a warning of a “Gearbox Malfunction”. The car then lost all power for a minute before resuming. A few minutes later, the same warning happened again and the car repeatedly lost power. This happened three further times during our client’s journey home.
Our client subsequently spoke to a mechanic who had previously worked for Audi, who plugged a laptop into the vehicle and ran diagnostic tests. The tests revealed that the vehicle suffered from a fault not uncommon to Audis manufactured in that year, whereby the vehicle believes that the clutch is about to fail so it cuts all torque from the engine in order to protect the clutch.
The diagnostic test also revealed that this error message had occurred a total of 14 times, with the first occurrence having happened on 18 August 2016. It is therefore clear that this error had been experienced by you ten times prior to our client purchasing it. A copy of the diagnostic test screen print is enclosed.
Misrepresentation
It is therefore clear that your representations to our client that the vehicle was in excellent condition and was running beautifully were false. These representations were made to our client either fraudulently or recklessly, insofar as you did not care whether they were true or false. Our client relied on your representations when entering into the contract for the purchase of the vehicle, and as a result has suffered loss.
Loss
As a result of your misrepresentation, our client has suffered a financial loss. This is quantified as the cost of repair, in the likely sum of £2,500. Our client is now seeking to recover this sum from you.
Court Proceedings
Please would you therefore arrange to pay to us the sum of £2,500 to this firm within the next seven days, in default of which we are instructed to issue court proceedings for recovery of the said sum together with all interest and costs. Please note our bank account details below or alternatively please make cheques payable to
XXX
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
XXX
Letter from solicitor to seller:
27 September 2016
Dear Sir
Our Client: XXX
Vehicle: Audi S5
We act for XXX, who has instructed us in connection with a contract with you in relation to the purchase of the above vehicle.
The Contract
After seeing an advertisement placed in Auto Trader by you for the sale of the above vehicle, our client arranged with you to view the vehicle on 1 September 2016. Your advertisement described the vehicle as follows:
“Excellent condition throughout. APR software modified for over 1 year, runs beautifully”.
Our client test drove the vehicle on 1 September 2016, during which you confirmed that the vehicle had “no problems”. Following the test drive our client agreed to purchase the car for the sum of £17,200 and paid you a deposit of £X.
On 3 September 2016 our client paid you the balance of the contract sum and collected the vehicle.
Vehicle faults
Following the sale to our client, it became clear during the drive home that there was a serious problem with the vehicle. Our client initially heard a very loud warning alarm and the centre console flashed up with a warning of a “Gearbox Malfunction”. The car then lost all power for a minute before resuming. A few minutes later, the same warning happened again and the car repeatedly lost power. This happened three further times during our client’s journey home.
Our client subsequently spoke to a mechanic who had previously worked for Audi, who plugged a laptop into the vehicle and ran diagnostic tests. The tests revealed that the vehicle suffered from a fault not uncommon to Audis manufactured in that year, whereby the vehicle believes that the clutch is about to fail so it cuts all torque from the engine in order to protect the clutch.
The diagnostic test also revealed that this error message had occurred a total of 14 times, with the first occurrence having happened on 18 August 2016. It is therefore clear that this error had been experienced by you ten times prior to our client purchasing it. A copy of the diagnostic test screen print is enclosed.
Misrepresentation
It is therefore clear that your representations to our client that the vehicle was in excellent condition and was running beautifully were false. These representations were made to our client either fraudulently or recklessly, insofar as you did not care whether they were true or false. Our client relied on your representations when entering into the contract for the purchase of the vehicle, and as a result has suffered loss.
Loss
As a result of your misrepresentation, our client has suffered a financial loss. This is quantified as the cost of repair, in the likely sum of £2,500. Our client is now seeking to recover this sum from you.
Court Proceedings
Please would you therefore arrange to pay to us the sum of £2,500 to this firm within the next seven days, in default of which we are instructed to issue court proceedings for recovery of the said sum together with all interest and costs. Please note our bank account details below or alternatively please make cheques payable to
XXX
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
XXX
And reply from seller:
Dear Sirs,
reference XXX
Further to your letter I completely refute that I in any way misrepresented the vehicle in question, in common with most people I have no idea how a modern car works and find the sheer complexity of the electronic and control systems baffling to use and a complete mystery. Like any modern car when started, numerous (warning?) lights come on and then go off, I assume the warning light that you refer to did the same, as it presumably wasn’t on when your client and his mechanic conducted a thorough inspection of the vehicle, it was and still is my honest opinion, that the vehicle was in “excellent condition”.
I would also state that the sale advertisement was placed on the 8th of August, which prior to when any alleged fault is supposed to have occurred, furthermore as I am not the only driver, and given that we do not have the benefit of a diagnostic laptop or any friends that can operate one, how was I supposed to know that there might be a problem, and given your client brought a mechanic and spent almost an hour examining the vehicle without finding fault, I reiterate, it was my honest opinion that the vehicle was in “excellent condition”.
Regarding the first paragraph of your letter “The Contract” the only contract I have knowledge of is the attached receipt “sold as seen” and once again it was my honest opinion that the vehicle was in “excellent condition”.
Best regards,
Dear Sirs,
reference XXX
Further to your letter I completely refute that I in any way misrepresented the vehicle in question, in common with most people I have no idea how a modern car works and find the sheer complexity of the electronic and control systems baffling to use and a complete mystery. Like any modern car when started, numerous (warning?) lights come on and then go off, I assume the warning light that you refer to did the same, as it presumably wasn’t on when your client and his mechanic conducted a thorough inspection of the vehicle, it was and still is my honest opinion, that the vehicle was in “excellent condition”.
I would also state that the sale advertisement was placed on the 8th of August, which prior to when any alleged fault is supposed to have occurred, furthermore as I am not the only driver, and given that we do not have the benefit of a diagnostic laptop or any friends that can operate one, how was I supposed to know that there might be a problem, and given your client brought a mechanic and spent almost an hour examining the vehicle without finding fault, I reiterate, it was my honest opinion that the vehicle was in “excellent condition”.
Regarding the first paragraph of your letter “The Contract” the only contract I have knowledge of is the attached receipt “sold as seen” and once again it was my honest opinion that the vehicle was in “excellent condition”.
Best regards,
Yes that is a little odd. I guess he may have noticed that the clutch acts a bit funny (kinda clunky) at stop and go when it's warm, Googled it and figured he should get rid quickly.
Alternatively, he may have had a mate with a VAG cable take a look at it and advise him to sell it ASAP after he wiped down the codes - only for them to happen again on the 18th Aug.
If I was a b*****d I could get the codes wiped, put it up for sale and know that the car will behave for 20 - 30 mins during a test drive, then claim ignorance afterwards with very little chance of getting caught.
Luckily I was brought up better than that!
Alternatively, he may have had a mate with a VAG cable take a look at it and advise him to sell it ASAP after he wiped down the codes - only for them to happen again on the 18th Aug.
If I was a b*****d I could get the codes wiped, put it up for sale and know that the car will behave for 20 - 30 mins during a test drive, then claim ignorance afterwards with very little chance of getting caught.
Luckily I was brought up better than that!
V6Pushfit said:
Did you take a mechanic and look over it for an hour?
I took the husband of a friend of my wifes does some work on cars as I was concerned about driving it without having proper insurance. He didn't even look under the bonnet. I must admit I thought he was going to take some stuff with him to plug into the car but alas not. Cost me £60 too! To be fair, the car drives great when cold, it's only after about 20 mins that you get the sense something isn't right.All-in we were there for about an hour which included the test drive and haggling.
ModernAndy said:
I was going to post something along those lines. The whole 'oh, I'm just a regular guy. What do I know about these magic car-codes?' thing is highly suspect to me as well. Of course, it's very possible the codes did start after the vehicle was up for sale and even if they did start before the advert was taken you'd find it very difficult to prove.
Was their advert definitely taken out on the 8th?
I can't prove when the advert was put on there, but either way it shouldn't make a different. What matters is what the advert said when I agreed to buy the car which is what I posted earlier. Was their advert definitely taken out on the 8th?
Also, he knew enough to get the car modified by APR and swap between programmes so he should know a little bit about magic codes! Also, it's a pretty hard to miss warning!
TooMany2cvs said:
So... the ball is in your court. Literally. Your next step is to either issue a court proceeding or chalk it up to experience. You have no other options. Except frozen sausages.
I have emailed a mediator and advised them of the background of the case.They replied saying they would be happy to mediate as long as both parties are willing to participate.
I replied to them and CC'd in the seller asking if he would be willing to sort this via the mediator rather than waste a courts time. I also stated that for the record I would be more than happy to sort it out this way.
Let's see if he is man enough to meet me and talk through the case in front of a mediator.
Some good comments so thanks for all the input so far.
The point about the mechanic is an interesting one. As I mentioned, he drove the car on the test drive and had a look at the tyres / brakes e.t.c. He didn't inspect anything under the bonnet and certainly didn't check the ECU codes. The only way this could have been diagnosed was if we had gone for a longer test drive and caused the error code to come up, or had the cable and laptop to be able to plug into the car but those are quite specialist items.
There is a really good chance others test drove this before I did and pulled out when the errors came up. Would be great if one of those stumbled on this thread!
The point about the mechanic is an interesting one. As I mentioned, he drove the car on the test drive and had a look at the tyres / brakes e.t.c. He didn't inspect anything under the bonnet and certainly didn't check the ECU codes. The only way this could have been diagnosed was if we had gone for a longer test drive and caused the error code to come up, or had the cable and laptop to be able to plug into the car but those are quite specialist items.
There is a really good chance others test drove this before I did and pulled out when the errors came up. Would be great if one of those stumbled on this thread!
deckster said:
It's not the seller's fault if the OP's expert wasn't any good.
To reiterate, the problem could not possibly be diagnosed without plugging in a cable and viewing the fault codes. It wouldn't have mattered who I took with me the result would have been the same. This is an electronic fault (as far as I know) and only manifests itself after a reasonable amount of driving (circa 30 mins). Once it starts, it won't stop until the car is left to completely cool down.Annoyingly we didn't run the car for any time before the drive otherwise I'm certain we would have seen the error and he'd be on to his next potential victim.
C70R said:
The law doesn't really discriminate. He was paid for his time, ergo he was acting as an agent of the buyer.
The most annoying thing is, I only took him as he had a company insurance policy and I was worried about driving it on mine. I paid him to come along and drive the car, not give a detailed technical analysis of it.He can change the radiator on an old transit van, but is by no means an Audi specialist which is what this would have needed.
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