Another Caveat Emptor Thread - with a slight twist
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
jith said:
Yet another totally anonymous "expert" on PH. They seem to breed on here and spout insults on a regular basis; but maybe I'm just being over-emotional, eh?
From the Oxford Dictionary:-
Definition of fraud in English:
fraud
Pronunciation: /fr??d/
noun
[mass noun]
1Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain: he was convicted of fraud [count noun]: prosecutions for social security frauds
More example sentences Synonyms
1.1 [count noun] A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities: mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds
More example sentences Synonyms
Origin
Middle English: from Old French fraude, from Latin fraus, fraud- 'deceit, injury'.
The above definition is precisely descriptive as to the act carried out on the OP by the seller. By deliberately describing the vehicle as roadworthy, when he had knowledge that it had a serious mechanical fault, was an act of clear deceit for financial gain. It is completely beyond doubt that it is anything other than this.
I have no doubt that in this particular moment in time you would have a hard job persuading the police of this, as my experience is that they are utterly useless in this kind of case and are now seriously overworked and under staffed. That does not change the fact that this type of act is fraud, and it's criminal in its intent: no question.
I know of no stated cases that would result in the loss of an action in the civil courts for a case such as this. Being such a bright spark however, perhaps you are aware of one?
J
Be careful about using a dictionary definition of a word when dealing with legal matters. The heading of fraud is just that, a heading. It is a bald descriptive word. From the Oxford Dictionary:-
Definition of fraud in English:
fraud
Pronunciation: /fr??d/
noun
[mass noun]
1Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain: he was convicted of fraud [count noun]: prosecutions for social security frauds
More example sentences Synonyms
1.1 [count noun] A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities: mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds
More example sentences Synonyms
Origin
Middle English: from Old French fraude, from Latin fraus, fraud- 'deceit, injury'.
The above definition is precisely descriptive as to the act carried out on the OP by the seller. By deliberately describing the vehicle as roadworthy, when he had knowledge that it had a serious mechanical fault, was an act of clear deceit for financial gain. It is completely beyond doubt that it is anything other than this.
I have no doubt that in this particular moment in time you would have a hard job persuading the police of this, as my experience is that they are utterly useless in this kind of case and are now seriously overworked and under staffed. That does not change the fact that this type of act is fraud, and it's criminal in its intent: no question.
I know of no stated cases that would result in the loss of an action in the civil courts for a case such as this. Being such a bright spark however, perhaps you are aware of one?
J
For instance, what would you construe as driving? How about sitting on a wall, with car keys in our pocket, and your car in a layby. That can (but not always) be defined as driving.
Here's an easy one: is a farmer's field premises? To help you I'll give you the Google definition of premises: a house or building, together with its land and outbuildings, occupied by a business or considered in an official context.
Whilst in theory you are quite correct in that the law should interpret words by their common useage, but that's just a theory.
So the sale of the item is fraudulent if it was misrepresented but it might not come under the legal definition.
I have over 45 years in the motor trade Derek and, believe me, I am massively experienced in dealing with this kind of utterly willful con merchant, both in the trade and as a customer.
As you say, the definition is a bald statement, in my view making it very simple indeed to understand. If a person goes into a shop and lifts up a piece of jewellery and leaves without paying they will be arrested. This is theft; the perpetrator has denied the owner the value of the goods for sale. He has acted criminally and deceitfully.
In the OP's case the seller deliberately misled him, through the terms of the advert, that the car was in roadworthy condition at the time of sale. He did so knowingly and with the intent of depriving the OP of much more money than the car would have realised had the fault been revealed. This is criminally deceptive and is fraud: I would argue that to the death.
If this went to court and that argument is presented, how is the respondent going to reply to that? What possible, logical argument is he going to make? There isn't one, particularly with the evidence of the ECU readout. This is impossible to alter or distort.
I see this kind of thing every single week in my workshop, admittedly mostly from dealers, but nonetheless brutally dishonest. They get away with it because people don't threaten them with action or complain enough. Still not acceptable by any standards.
J
Vaud said:
OverSteery said:
Nor should you confuse warranty with statutory (consumer) rights under law for things to be fit for purpose.
Fair point. Though the good will was that in my case - polybush replacement.
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
I think Derek is referring to someone whom is banned for drink Driving - in certain situations they can be construed to be driving, for the purposes of being breathalysed by the police? Might be wrong however, might just have grabbed the wrong end of le stick.
Derek has form for constantly referring to drink driving cases arising from s.8 of the Road Traffic Act 1972. The Road Traffic Act 1972 was repealed in 1988. If Derek gives an opinion on the meaning of driving then unless you have a time machine, ignore.Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
I think Derek is referring to someone whom is banned for drink Driving - in certain situations they can be construed to be driving, for the purposes of being breathalysed by the police? Might be wrong however, might just have grabbed the wrong end of le stick.
It's "saveloy". Difficult situation for both party's.
A few observations...
- Just because an error is logged does not mean it flagged up on the dashboard
- if the error message goes away when restarted, does not mean it is a persistent error
- 4k is a lot of money for a "fix", im sure you can get it doe cheaper. though i do not fully understand the issue
- If you want your money back, or cost of repair paid for you will need to take him to court.
- At court, you will need to prove he deliberately deceived you. This could be difficult using evidence that is not necessarily understand or retrieved and presented by some one completely independent.
Hope you get it resolved. Might be worth sending your evidence to the vendor and asking to go halves on the bill. Even if this fails you can show good will in a resolution to the judge.
A few observations...
- Just because an error is logged does not mean it flagged up on the dashboard
- if the error message goes away when restarted, does not mean it is a persistent error
- 4k is a lot of money for a "fix", im sure you can get it doe cheaper. though i do not fully understand the issue
- If you want your money back, or cost of repair paid for you will need to take him to court.
- At court, you will need to prove he deliberately deceived you. This could be difficult using evidence that is not necessarily understand or retrieved and presented by some one completely independent.
Hope you get it resolved. Might be worth sending your evidence to the vendor and asking to go halves on the bill. Even if this fails you can show good will in a resolution to the judge.
rallycross said:
It's not exactly this at all and you are giving the oP false hope with such advice, it's very unlikely he will get anywhere pursuing this in court.
My advice would be you should stick to marketing because on the strength of what you've posted here, you wouldn't be much good as a lawyer....OP, it's not cut and dried but it's worth exploring further. A court would want expert evidence on what the datalogging evidence actually means and whether those error messages would have had to have been displayed on the dash.
It's worth checking your home contents insurance to see whether it includes legal expenses insurance and, if it does, give your insurer a call to see whether it covers a misrepresentation claim.
Lurking Lawyer said:
OP, it's not cut and dried but it's worth exploring further. A court would want expert evidence on what the datalogging evidence actually means and whether those error messages would have had to have been displayed on the dash.
It's worth checking your home contents insurance to see whether it includes legal expenses insurance and, if it does, give your insurer a call to see whether it covers a misrepresentation claim.
Funnily enough I just finished reading up about a similar case that all hinged on the reliability of the expert witness. I'm hoping this mechanic would be sufficient as he is impartial and worked for Audi as a senior mechanic for 16 years.It's worth checking your home contents insurance to see whether it includes legal expenses insurance and, if it does, give your insurer a call to see whether it covers a misrepresentation claim.
Great shout on the home insurance cover, I'll look into that now. Even if it doesn't, I'll be wanting to go to court to put my evidence forward.
A couple of people have mentioned getting cheaper quote's for the repair. A lot depends on the inspection next week during the service. If the mechatronic unit needs to be replaced, they need to be custom ordered from Germany and set up to match my exact car. That is going to cost £1.2k + VAT (£1,440). There is then a whole load of smaller parts that will need to be replaced as part of the process, plus approximately 20 hours of labour. £3k is possible, but it's not going to be any less unless I can get some serious mates rates on the labour part.
If it's 'just' the PCB that needs replacing then it could be half that. But, if I pay £1500 to replace the PCB and it turns out the mechatronic needs replacing after all that is £1500 down the drain and I'll still need to pay the £3k-£4k.
chriswg said:
If it's 'just' the PCB that needs replacing then it could be half that. But, if I pay £1500 to replace the PCB and it turns out the mechatronic needs replacing after all that is £1500 down the drain and I'll still need to pay the £3k-£4k.
Slightly off topic, but i don't get why garages can charge you for something that didn't need doing and get away with it. It is tantamount to simply not knowing what you are doing.If i charged for fixing an IT issue by putting in some new hardware, but the issue still remained. I wouldn't exactly be able to charge for it.
What a complete scumbag, he knew full well what he was doing. People like this usually get what's coming to them one way or another.
I hope you have or will get something sorted with this prick.
Lesson learned. If your buying an expensive car, pay for an independent inspection. What's 150 quid if your spending 17k?
Trust nobody, not even dealers. They are the worse for hiding problems.
I hope you have or will get something sorted with this prick.
Lesson learned. If your buying an expensive car, pay for an independent inspection. What's 150 quid if your spending 17k?
Trust nobody, not even dealers. They are the worse for hiding problems.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff