Sentencing. Shouldn't the Punishment fit the Crime?

[Mill Wheel]

In the light of various cases, but most recently the "Black Lives Matter" protest at London Airport, is it not about time that a degree of even handedness was applied to sentencing?

At the moment it seems to be a lottery, with varying sentences being handed down for similar crimes.

The BLM airport protest is a case in point - with what appears to be ludicrously lenient sentences being handed out!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3788741/Bl...

Daily Mail said:

To be committing aggravated trespass, a person must be both trespassing and intentionally obstructing others from carrying out ‘lawful activities’.
By refusing to cooperate with police, the Black Lives Matter protesters committed the offence.
The maximum sentence for the offence is three months imprisonment or a fine of £2500.
First time offenders usually get fines of £200 and £300.
Despite the disruption caused, the judge in this case gave all nine a conditional discharge, which means they will not be punished unless they commit another offence in a specified period.
The group also had to pay a £95 court fee, which they reportedly paid on their debit cards.

Compared to the anti fracking protest in Surrey last year:
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/anti-f...

GetSurrey said:

A pair of anti-fracking campaigners have been ordered to pay £295 each after they locked themselves together at a drilling site near Horley last year.

When it comes to sentencing, does it not serve justice to give an explanation of sentencing, so that the public can see when some offenders are treated leniently?

[johnty1]

Mill Wheel said:

In the light of various cases, but most recently the "Black Lives Matter" protest at London Airport, is it not about time that a degree of even handedness was applied to sentencing?

At the moment it seems to be a lottery, with varying sentences being handed down for similar crimes.

.......

They were not treated so differently. The airport protesters pleaded guilty, and would therefore incur much lower costs and a discount for the guilty plea.

The anti-frackers elected to go to trial, so the major part of their 295 quid would be costs. Both sets probably paid the same victim surcharge. The difference between a CD and 75 pound fine is not great, almost certainly within the same guidline range of sentencing.

That quote about aggravated tresspass is nice and inflammatory, but of course that isn't what they were charged with. Typical daily Mail, really.

[Tony1963]

Unless you are full aware of all details for court cases it's impossible to say whether sentencing is correct. Yes, there'll be variations across the country, from court to court, and from day to day. But I wouldn't go all Daily Mail over it. My own life needs my attention, no time for troublemakers.

[NNH]

I was thinking about this earlier today. 9 highly-educated people went to great lengths to break into a high security area, increase risks for aircraft. and ruin the plans of many people, and got suspended sentences. By comparison, Jack Cottle got 8 months for "breaking in" to Brands Hatch.

To me, the idiocy, danger, and impact on others seem broadly similar, but the clearly premeditated actions of the BLM crowd have not been punished properly

[Tony1963]

Unless you are full aware of all details for court cases it's impossible to say whether sentencing is correct. Yes, there'll be variations across the country, from court to court, and from day to day. But I wouldn't go all Daily Mail over it. My own life needs my attention, no time for troublemakers.

[spookly]

NNH said:

I was thinking about this earlier today. 9 highly-educated people went to great lengths to break into a high security area, increase risks for aircraft. and ruin the plans of many people, and got suspended sentences. By comparison, Jack Cottle got 8 months for "breaking in" to Brands Hatch.

To me, the idiocy, danger, and impact on others seem broadly similar, but the clearly premeditated actions of the BLM crowd have not been punished properly

Did you hear the crap they were spouting?
They may or may not be highly educated, but they are dumb as house bricks.

[drf765]

Mill Wheel said:

In the light of various cases, but most recently the "Black Lives Matter" protest at London Airport, is it not about time that a degree of even handedness was applied to sentencing?

At the moment it seems to be a lottery, with varying sentences being handed down for similar crimes.

The BLM airport protest is a case in point - with what appears to be ludicrously lenient sentences being handed out!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3788741/Bl...

Daily Mail said:

To be committing aggravated trespass, a person must be both trespassing and intentionally obstructing others from carrying out ‘lawful activities’.
By refusing to cooperate with police, the Black Lives Matter protesters committed the offence.
The maximum sentence for the offence is three months imprisonment or a fine of £2500.
First time offenders usually get fines of £200 and £300.
Despite the disruption caused, the judge in this case gave all nine a conditional discharge, which means they will not be punished unless they commit another offence in a specified period.
The group also had to pay a £95 court fee, which they reportedly paid on their debit cards.

Compared to the anti fracking protest in Surrey last year:
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/anti-f...

GetSurrey said:

A pair of anti-fracking campaigners have been ordered to pay £295 each after they locked themselves together at a drilling site near Horley last year.

When it comes to sentencing, does it not serve justice to give an explanation of sentencing, so that the public can see when some offenders are treated leniently?

Courts do give an explanation of the sentences they pass. While these are available to the Daily Mail their journalists do not or seldom refer to these, only making reference if it serves to sensationalise the story.

If you want to make comments on this subject then you should refer to the source material and not rely on material you see in a publication loosely desribed as a newspaper.

The courts will usually adhere to sentencing guidance and when sentence is passed they refer to this and give reasoning on how it has been applied in the context of the case. Different circumstances will give different sentences and newspapers don't report that and their journalists are most probably unaware of the process on which they report.

[NNH]

spookly said:

NNH said:

I was thinking about this earlier today. 9 highly-educated people went to great lengths to break into a high security area, increase risks for aircraft. and ruin the plans of many people, and got suspended sentences. By comparison, Jack Cottle got 8 months for "breaking in" to Brands Hatch.

To me, the idiocy, danger, and impact on others seem broadly similar, but the clearly premeditated actions of the BLM crowd have not been punished properly

Did you hear the crap they were spouting?
They may or may not be highly educated, but they are dumb as house bricks.

I'm not denying they were stupid, but I am saying that have even less excuse for stupidity than Cottle had.

[Atomic12C]

UK 'justice' seems to have gone very much lefty lefty over the recent decades, with concentration being on so called 'rehabilitation' instead of punishment.

As you may tell, I'm not a fan of this approach and would rather see harsher sentencing as a deterrent. Also I'd rather see less spent on prisoners once they are locked away from society.
Use old decommissioned prison ships out of the reach of drone battery range etc. etc. yada yada.... you know the score

[Derek Smith]

Atomic12C said:

UK 'justice' seems to have gone very much lefty lefty over the recent decades, with concentration being on so called 'rehabilitation' instead of punishment.

As you may tell, I'm not a fan of this approach and would rather see harsher sentencing as a deterrent. Also I'd rather see less spent on prisoners once they are locked away from society.
Use old decommissioned prison ships out of the reach of drone battery range etc. etc. yada yada.... you know the score

All evidence over the years has shown that the major deterrent in all crime is being caught and dealt with. Even police cautions work.

Rehabilitation; you mention that as if it has no benefit to society. I see no reason to doubt the academics who have researched into the matter and found that recidivism could be cut dramatically by giving prisoners options on release.

We spend little on prisons at the moment and people come out with little attempts at diversion in the main.

The punishment is being imprisoned. Diversion is a way of cutting crime.

[Atomic12C]

Derek Smith said:

All evidence over the years has shown that the major deterrent in all crime is being caught and dealt with. Even police cautions work.

Rehabilitation; you mention that as if it has no benefit to society. I see no reason to doubt the academics who have researched into the matter and found that recidivism could be cut dramatically by giving prisoners options on release.

We spend little on prisons at the moment and people come out with little attempts at diversion in the main.

The punishment is being imprisoned. Diversion is a way of cutting crime.

I guess the main problem when it comes to "what is the best evidence approach", is that we've never really gone down the modern route of attaining evidence of harsher punishment have we?
(Not using other countries as examples as that is not comparing apples with apples).

We gone down the soft lefty path of rehabilitation rather that punishment as a deterrent, so we have strong evidence of how that is turning out.
Although, the conditions inside prisons from TV programs that I've watched (although accepted don't paint a full picture), gives an indication that 'prison life' is sociable, relatively accommodating, free TV, free gym, free food, free access to drugs etc. etc. With many of them coming out feeling that society still owes them something for the mistake of themselves being caught.

Just my personal opinion of course.

[anonymous-user]

Courts take all the circumstances into account. In reporting events, and court cases, the press do not. Not usually a good idea to judge these things on press reports alone.

[anonymous-user]

Atomic12C said:

I guess the main problem when it comes to "what is the best evidence approach", is that we've never really gone down the modern route of attaining evidence of harsher punishment have we?
(Not using other countries as examples as that is not comparing apples with apples).

We gone down the soft lefty path of rehabilitation rather that punishment as a deterrent, so we have strong evidence of how that is turning out.
Although, the conditions inside prisons from TV programs that I've watched (although accepted don't paint a full picture), gives an indication that 'prison life' is sociable, relatively accommodating, free TV, free gym, free food, free access to drugs etc. etc. With many of them coming out feeling that society still owes them something for the mistake of themselves being caught.

Just my personal opinion of course.

Prison is a fairly good (albeit expensive) way of protecting the public, although currently a fairly lousy one of addressing the causes of the crime that put them there in the first place. The supposedly 'left wing' approach of helping offenders improve their lives so they don't 'need' to offend would be money better spent, although, like you, this is just a personal opinion.

[johnty1]

Atomic12C said:

I guess the main problem when it comes to "what is the best evidence approach", is that we've never really gone down the modern route of attaining evidence of harsher punishment have we?
(Not using other countries as examples as that is not comparing apples with apples).

Why not use data from other countries, if those countries have a similar national culture?

Atomic12C said:

We gone down the soft lefty path of rehabilitation rather that punishment as a deterrent, so we have strong evidence of how that is turning out.

Yes, we have. It works. And it's neither lefty nor righty.

Edited by johnty1 on Saturday 17th September 21:54

[Derek Smith]

Atomic12C said:

I guess the main problem when it comes to "what is the best evidence approach", is that we've never really gone down the modern route of attaining evidence of harsher punishment have we?
(Not using other countries as examples as that is not comparing apples with apples).

We gone down the soft lefty path of rehabilitation rather that punishment as a deterrent, so we have strong evidence of how that is turning out.
Although, the conditions inside prisons from TV programs that I've watched (although accepted don't paint a full picture), gives an indication that 'prison life' is sociable, relatively accommodating, free TV, free gym, free food, free access to drugs etc. etc. With many of them coming out feeling that society still owes them something for the mistake of themselves being caught.

Just my personal opinion of course.

If you want to go beyond just an opinion then read up on the evidence.

I accept that there's not a lot of support for increasing sentences but I don't think that makes if lefty. If you look to organisations that have studied how effective mere incarceration is as both a deterrent and as a diversion then you'll see the that it is overwhelming.

I'm ex old Bill and I started with the supposition that the short, sharp shock was the only way forward. But if the evidence says otherwise then you have to accept it.

My youngest works with a diversion charity and he reckons he's had success, not with many, but certainly a number of them. This is before they have committed serious crimes.

[Rangeroverover]

What would you think about the crazy sentences handed down for the LIBOR case, hardly manslaughter or murder is it

[jakesmith]

Rangeroverover said:

What would you think about the crazy sentences handed down for the LIBOR case, hardly manslaughter or murder is it

It was hardly robbing a Mars bar from a corner shop either.
London is the financial capital of the world and these crooks completely undermined the integrity of the system.
What sort of deterrent would it be if they hadn't faced jail?
Look at the damage financial greed in the banking sector has caused the global economy in the last 10 years to see why they received these sentences, they were hardly long stretches anyway with most of them out in 2 years

[Biker 1]

Derek Smith said:

All evidence over the years has shown that the major deterrent in all crime is being caught and dealt with. Even police cautions work.

Rehabilitation; you mention that as if it has no benefit to society. I see no reason to doubt the academics who have researched into the matter and found that recidivism could be cut dramatically by giving prisoners options on release.

We spend little on prisons at the moment and people come out with little attempts at diversion in the main.

The punishment is being imprisoned. Diversion is a way of cutting crime.

Whilst I agree with much of this, the BLM 'protesters' were not your usual feral/chav/pond life scum. What do you suggest is the best way of dealing with these people? Personally, I believe a massive fine, which would go some way to compensating the airport, plod, the passengers & any others inconvenienced. On another note, it seems the airport's security leaves a little to be desired....

[trickywoo]

jakesmith said:

It was hardly robbing a Mars bar from a corner shop either.
London is the financial capital of the world and these crooks completely undermined the integrity of the system.
What sort of deterrent would it be if they hadn't faced jail?
Look at the damage financial greed in the banking sector has caused the global economy in the last 10 years to see why they received these sentences, they were hardly long stretches anyway with most of them out in 2 years

+1

When you can get a custodial these days for popping a couple of wheelies on a bike this seems pretty lenient.