tenant refusing access for gas safety

[mdw]

I its a meter check the gas people CAN and WILL break into your house to check. My parents came back from 3 months holiday to find the alarm had gone off and a letter saying the gas board had used a lock smith to enter the house and lock up afterwards. Despite being outrageous it is entirely legal for them to do this.

[hutchst]

ging84 said:

The lack of gas safety check alone is not a safety issue, so it's not grounds to force entry.
There is no requirement to have one in a privately owned home only a rented one.
As long as you can show you took reasonable steps to comply with the regulation then you are fine.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm...

Maybe so, but how would your Landlord building insurance respond if the place was damaged in some way by faulty gas installation and you didn't have a certificate?

[BJG1]

superlightr said:

told the tenant of the risks, its for their own benefit, they are in breach of contract etc but we wont enter without their permission to do the safety check.
We have discharged our liability if they wont allow access then we wont force it/ not allowed to force it.

All we can do is give them notice to leave.

Sounds to me like they're on holiday and don't want someone they've never met accessing the house until they're back?

Perfectly reasonable if so.

[2lefthands]

mdw said:

I its a meter check the gas people CAN and WILL break into your house to check. My parents came back from 3 months holiday to find the alarm had gone off and a letter saying the gas board had used a lock smith to enter the house and lock up afterwards. Despite being outrageous it is entirely legal for them to do this.

By "gas people" do you mean distribution network operatives or Gas Safe engineer? Big difference.

More detail would be required for this to make sense. Gas ESP only has rights of entry to deal with uncontrollable escape or preserving life and property. A check only? No chance.

[2lefthands]

hutchst said:

ging84 said:

The lack of gas safety check alone is not a safety issue, so it's not grounds to force entry.
There is no requirement to have one in a privately owned home only a rented one.
As long as you can show you took reasonable steps to comply with the regulation then you are fine.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm...

Maybe so, but how would your Landlord building insurance respond if the place was damaged in some way by faulty gas installation and you didn't have a certificate?

Provided you can demonstrate the repeated attempt to arrange access by agreement with tenant, insurer wouldn't give a hoot. Based on experience, not pub chat.

[AndrewEH1]

So much great advice on this thread!

I guess only about five actual LLs (or those in the industry) on it though...

[All that jazz]

mdw said:

If its a meter check the gas people CAN and WILL break into your house to check. My parents came back from 3 months holiday to find the alarm had gone off and a letter saying the gas board had used a lock smith to enter the house and lock up afterwards. Despite being outrageous it is entirely legal for them to do this.

LOL.

[Pip1968]

I was of the understanding that a landlord has a legal right to inspect the property as long as he gives 24 hours notice in writing. Am I wrong???

Surely once in a gas certificate could be sorted - ???

That said my colleague had a plumber going through his wife's knicker draw whilst the landlord/letting agent stood by but that is another story.

Pip

[AndrewEH1]

Pip1968 said:

I was of the understanding that a landlord has a legal right to inspect the property as long as he gives 24 hours notice in writing. Am I wrong???

Surely once in a gas certificate could be sorted - ???

That said my colleague had a plumber going through his wife's knicker draw whilst the landlord/letting agent stood by but that is another story.

Pip

No.

[Pip1968]

Not very helpful. I am not sure if that was a text sent at the traffic lights but two questions and one answer "No" what? No entry or no gas cert. once in???

If no entry does that mean you cannot carry out property inspections?? If you can what are the circumstances then?

Pip

[Gareth79]

2lefthands said:

mdw said:

I its a meter check the gas people CAN and WILL break into your house to check. My parents came back from 3 months holiday to find the alarm had gone off and a letter saying the gas board had used a lock smith to enter the house and lock up afterwards. Despite being outrageous it is entirely legal for them to do this.

By "gas people" do you mean distribution network operatives or Gas Safe engineer? Big difference.

More detail would be required for this to make sense. Gas ESP only has rights of entry to deal with uncontrollable escape or preserving life and property. A check only? No chance.

I'd imagine that a neighbour or other person smelled gas and called it in, then they traced the leak using the sniffer tool thing and found the parents' house full of gas.

I would personally be very relieved if that happened - better that than come home to a crater!

[2lefthands]

Gareth79 said:

2lefthands said:

mdw said:

I its a meter check the gas people CAN and WILL break into your house to check. My parents came back from 3 months holiday to find the alarm had gone off and a letter saying the gas board had used a lock smith to enter the house and lock up afterwards. Despite being outrageous it is entirely legal for them to do this.

By "gas people" do you mean distribution network operatives or Gas Safe engineer? Big difference.

More detail would be required for this to make sense. Gas ESP only has rights of entry to deal with uncontrollable escape or preserving life and property. A check only? No chance.

I'd imagine that a neighbour or other person smelled gas and called it in, then they traced the leak using the sniffer tool thing and found the parents' house full of gas.

I would personally be very relieved if that happened - better that than come home to a crater!

So your post, full of supposition when I'd sought circumstantial clarification, basically outlines what I've said, potentially, about uncontrolled escape or preserving life/property?

As for "house full of gas", you will of course know that overconcentrated confined atmosphere is, as standard, graded as an external isolation and ventilate situation in absence of responsible person. Property isolation elbow (if available) used, or permanent disconnection carried out, normally a live snatch that I've always preferred to witness from a safe distance.

[KevinCamaroSS]

Pip1968 said:

I was of the understanding that a landlord has a legal right to inspect the property as long as he gives 24 hours notice in writing. Am I wrong???

Surely once in a gas certificate could be sorted - ???

That said my colleague had a plumber going through his wife's knicker draw whilst the landlord/letting agent stood by but that is another story.

Pip

Tenant is entitled to 'quiet enjoyment'. This means even the landlord can only enter with the tenant's permission.

[Rangeroverover]

2lefthands said:

Wrong. If you have documented proof of attempts to arrange access, your legal duty of care is discharged should tenant refuse access. You have to continue to attempt to arrange, but the tenant cannot then report landlord for non-compliance. See HSE website. I advise landlords on this matter at least once a week.

I'll let the legals here comment on your specific clause regarding no right to refuse access, but it is overreaching. If it were for emergency access I can understand, but not annual checks. Again, HSE website.

This from My ASTs

9. Allow us and our agents to come into the property at all reasonable hours of the day to inspect the condition of the property, to carry out repairs or other works we must carry out by law. We will give you at least 24 hours written notice if we are going to enter the property. You must let us enter the property immediately if there is an emergency.

Also we agree

2. Be responsible for servicing and maintaining any gas heating system and making sure that all gas appliances within the property are checked by a British Gas or Corgi registered technician every year, in line with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use Regulations) 1994.

[surveyor_101]

Rangeroverover said:

This from My ASTs

9. Allow us and our agents to come into the property at all reasonable hours of the day to inspect the condition of the property, to carry out repairs or other works we must carry out by law. We will give you at least 24 hours written notice if we are going to enter the property. You must let us enter the property immediately if there is an emergency.

Also we agree

2. Be responsible for servicing and maintaining any gas heating system and making sure that all gas appliances within the property are checked by a British Gas or Corgi registered technician every year, in line with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use Regulations) 1994.

British gas are a rip off, seen a number if their new boiler installations condemned come gas safety check cp12.

By the way corgi ceased to exist years ago, checked 2009 as they lost their status.

It's gas safe now, might want to update your ast.

Edited by surveyor_101 on Monday 19th September 20:09

[Vroom101]

Rangeroverover said:

2lefthands said:

Wrong. If you have documented proof of attempts to arrange access, your legal duty of care is discharged should tenant refuse access. You have to continue to attempt to arrange, but the tenant cannot then report landlord for non-compliance. See HSE website. I advise landlords on this matter at least once a week.

I'll let the legals here comment on your specific clause regarding no right to refuse access, but it is overreaching. If it were for emergency access I can understand, but not annual checks. Again, HSE website.

This from My ASTs

9. Allow us and our agents to come into the property at all reasonable hours of the day to inspect the condition of the property, to carry out repairs or other works we must carry out by law. We will give you at least 24 hours written notice if we are going to enter the property. You must let us enter the property immediately if there is an emergency.

And this is from the Total Landlord website mention earlier in the thread:

"Landlords are not entitled to enter a rented property without their tenants’ permission - even if the tenancy agreement says that they can. Refusing to allow you access will put the tenants in breach of their tenancy agreement, but this does not give you the right to go in against their wishes. (This is confirmed by the recently published government code of practice)"

This would suggest your AST is slightly out of kilter with what is allowed in law. Now, I don't know if you've had problem tenants in the past, which has skewed your thinking, but don't be surprised to find yourself in hot water if you do try and enforce this 'right'.

What you and your agents think is a 'reasonable' time of day may differ from your tennant, especially if they are a shift worker on nights. Out of interest, how much notice do you actually give?

[WatchfulEye]

mdw said:

I its a meter check the gas people CAN and WILL break into your house to check. My parents came back from 3 months holiday to find the alarm had gone off and a letter saying the gas board had used a lock smith to enter the house and lock up afterwards. Despite being outrageous it is entirely legal for them to do this.

This is correct. However, a periodic safety check, while a legal requirement check is not an emergency, and for the gas distributor to have forced entry to your hoouse, they will have first had to apply to court for a warrant to force entry.

[MWM3]

Trust me, this might sound like overkill but to cover yourself write to the tenants again explaining the importance of having the check done and that unfortunatley as you have made every attempt to have it carried out you are discharing your responsibility until they grant cacess. Then the important part, now the certificate has expired notify the local council evironmental health department of the situation. This way you have taken all reasonable steps and a relevant third party is aware of the situation.

However, you can't just forget about it after this, you do still need to continue to make reasonable attempts to get this resolved.

[All that jazz]

MWM3 said:

Trust me, this might sound like overkill but to cover yourself write to the tenants again explaining the importance of having the check done and that unfortunatley as you have made every attempt to have it carried out you are discharing your responsibility until they grant cacess. Then the important part, now the certificate has expired notify the local council evironmental health department of the situation. This way you have taken all reasonable steps and a relevant third party is aware of the situation.

However, you can't just forget about it after this, you do still need to continue to make reasonable attempts to get this resolved.

I would argue that is terrible advice unless you enjoy creating a whole load of extra hassle and aggro for yourself.

[MWM3]

All that jazz said:

I would argue that is terrible advice unless you enjoy creating a whole load of extra hassle and aggro for yourself.

OK, If you think so.