tenant refusing access for gas safety
Discussion
Bristol spark said:
C70R said:
Lopey said:
How about get off your backside and do your job as a landlord? It's not the tenants responsibility to be available for the gas safety check, its yours. Book the gas engineer in, give tenant required notice, then get to the property and let him in yourself.
The amount of landlords who expect the tenants to deal with all the upkeep on a property they have no interest in is bizarre.
Worst advice of the day award, right here.The amount of landlords who expect the tenants to deal with all the upkeep on a property they have no interest in is bizarre.
Its up to the Landlord/agent to arrange, let me know when, and then letting plumber in/out. As i wouldn't be taking a day off to let a plumber in! (Who probably wont even turn up!)
Vroom101 said:
And this is from the Total Landlord website mention earlier in the thread:
"Landlords are not entitled to enter a rented property without their tenants’ permission - even if the tenancy agreement says that they can. Refusing to allow you access will put the tenants in breach of their tenancy agreement, but this does not give you the right to go in against their wishes. (This is confirmed by the recently published government code of practice)"
This would suggest your AST is slightly out of kilter with what is allowed in law. Now, I don't know if you've had problem tenants in the past, which has skewed your thinking, but don't be surprised to find yourself in hot water if you do try and enforce this 'right'.
What you and your agents think is a 'reasonable' time of day may differ from your tennant, especially if they are a shift worker on nights. Out of interest, how much notice do you actually give?
Generally we give about 5 days notice so if it doesn't suit the tenant we have a chance to rearrange it without mucking the engineer about at short notice"Landlords are not entitled to enter a rented property without their tenants’ permission - even if the tenancy agreement says that they can. Refusing to allow you access will put the tenants in breach of their tenancy agreement, but this does not give you the right to go in against their wishes. (This is confirmed by the recently published government code of practice)"
This would suggest your AST is slightly out of kilter with what is allowed in law. Now, I don't know if you've had problem tenants in the past, which has skewed your thinking, but don't be surprised to find yourself in hot water if you do try and enforce this 'right'.
What you and your agents think is a 'reasonable' time of day may differ from your tennant, especially if they are a shift worker on nights. Out of interest, how much notice do you actually give?
Rangeroverover said:
Vroom101 said:
And this is from the Total Landlord website mention earlier in the thread:
"Landlords are not entitled to enter a rented property without their tenants’ permission - even if the tenancy agreement says that they can. Refusing to allow you access will put the tenants in breach of their tenancy agreement, but this does not give you the right to go in against their wishes. (This is confirmed by the recently published government code of practice)"
This would suggest your AST is slightly out of kilter with what is allowed in law. Now, I don't know if you've had problem tenants in the past, which has skewed your thinking, but don't be surprised to find yourself in hot water if you do try and enforce this 'right'.
What you and your agents think is a 'reasonable' time of day may differ from your tennant, especially if they are a shift worker on nights. Out of interest, how much notice do you actually give?
Generally we give about 5 days notice so if it doesn't suit the tenant we have a chance to rearrange it without mucking the engineer about at short notice"Landlords are not entitled to enter a rented property without their tenants’ permission - even if the tenancy agreement says that they can. Refusing to allow you access will put the tenants in breach of their tenancy agreement, but this does not give you the right to go in against their wishes. (This is confirmed by the recently published government code of practice)"
This would suggest your AST is slightly out of kilter with what is allowed in law. Now, I don't know if you've had problem tenants in the past, which has skewed your thinking, but don't be surprised to find yourself in hot water if you do try and enforce this 'right'.
What you and your agents think is a 'reasonable' time of day may differ from your tennant, especially if they are a shift worker on nights. Out of interest, how much notice do you actually give?
Does your policy work both ways? If one of your tenants has a problem with the property, are you there within 24 hours sorting it out? I'm not starting an argument, by the way. I am considering becoming a landlord at some point in the future, and am genuinely interested how your AST is workable considering it is effectively unenforceable if you want to stay the right side of the law.
To answer your question, yes it does work both ways, to a certain extent it depends on the severity of the problem, if its something not super urgent like the dishwasher isn't draining we will book in an engineer to come as soon as possible, if its 3-5 days then thats ok. If the power, heating, hot water or something that could damage either the tenants possesions or the fabric of the property we will get someone there within hours, I have had phone calls on a saturday night and managed to get a plumber in on a sunday morning before now.
So rangerrover are you saying your engineered would of without permission on the basis you have complied with your tenancy wording and you care not whether that is lawful?
It's in my tenancy about access for inspections but my agent won't enter if the tenant says no, regardless of what it says that won't risk it.
On the other hand I had an agent who would issue 7 days notice and he didn't care what the tenant said he would enter. He also tried a section 13 after 8 months of tenancy to increase the rent. When I said it's was unlawful and breached the tenancy he said ok I will re date it for the 12 months then and put the phone down on me.
It's in my tenancy about access for inspections but my agent won't enter if the tenant says no, regardless of what it says that won't risk it.
On the other hand I had an agent who would issue 7 days notice and he didn't care what the tenant said he would enter. He also tried a section 13 after 8 months of tenancy to increase the rent. When I said it's was unlawful and breached the tenancy he said ok I will re date it for the 12 months then and put the phone down on me.
Bristol spark said:
TBF as a Tenant, i wouldn't be arranging things with a plumber, then taking a day off to let him in.
Its up to the Landlord/agent to arrange, let me know when, and then letting plumber in/out. As i wouldn't be taking a day off to let a plumber in! (Who probably wont even turn up!)
I understand the inconvenience in safety appointments for working people but a rented place is your home and you have many rights there which include it often being similarly treated as somewhere you do own - not some serviced apartment where lots of people have keys to it. Many tenants don't even like strangers in their house, around their things and this especially so when they are not there. CO is no fun but at least someone cares - unlike with most owner occupiers!!!Its up to the Landlord/agent to arrange, let me know when, and then letting plumber in/out. As i wouldn't be taking a day off to let a plumber in! (Who probably wont even turn up!)
This kind of s
t is why i flat refuse any work from landlord/letting agents unless the property is currently void. Driving to a prebooked appointment where the tenant isn't in or refuses access, then the lanlord refuses to pay for your wasted time and diesel when its their fault for renting to scum.
t is why i flat refuse any work from landlord/letting agents unless the property is currently void. Driving to a prebooked appointment where the tenant isn't in or refuses access, then the lanlord refuses to pay for your wasted time and diesel when its their fault for renting to scum.hutchst said:
ging84 said:
The lack of gas safety check alone is not a safety issue, so it's not grounds to force entry.
There is no requirement to have one in a privately owned home only a rented one.
As long as you can show you took reasonable steps to comply with the regulation then you are fine.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm...
Maybe so, but how would your Landlord building insurance respond if the place was damaged in some way by faulty gas installation and you didn't have a certificate?There is no requirement to have one in a privately owned home only a rented one.
As long as you can show you took reasonable steps to comply with the regulation then you are fine.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm...
OldGermanHeaps said:
when its their fault for renting to scum.
Renting to scum, is that how you view all private sector tenants.Nice attitude, I assume you own your property and nev rented?.
My next door neighbors are a accountant and radioographer, they rent privately and allow inspections when they are out. This the sort of scum we are talking about.
surveyor_101 said:
OldGermanHeaps said:
when its their fault for renting to scum.
Renting to scum, is that how you view all private sector tenants.Nice attitude, I assume you own your property and nev rented?.
My next door neighbors are a accountant and radioographer, they rent privately and allow inspections when they are out. This the sort of scum we are talking about.
My wife and I are both professional people, we rented for several years on ASTs because we moved a lot with our work. We now have our own house and are also landlords renting out a flat privately. during our rental periods we never had a problem with landlords or agencies. We would agree visits where necessary for safety issues such as gas certificates, if we were not around the agency representative would be present.
Are we 'scum'?
Nope. Scum rip the door entry intercom off the wall during a drinking bender or smashes a smoke detector because bong smoke sets it off, or suffers a genuine fault, then complain to the landlord, landlord calls engineer, engineer contacts tenant directly, asks client when they would like a visit, 8am-8pm whatever suits their schedule, engineer arrives on time as arranged and client either isnt in, or shouts through the letterbox fk off i'm trying to sleep. That is a pure waste of time and diesel and the landlords refuse to pay for the wasted visits.there are mostly good tenants out there but the stty ones generate far more callouts, i'd guess at a 1-1 ratio based on callouts, not occupancy. The housing associations realise this and pay accordingly and arrange the access themselves and send staff with keys but the private letting agents who contacted me looking for work expected me to foot the risks and kept trying to renegotiate prices after the fact. Just speaking from personal experience.
k off i'm trying to sleep. That is a pure waste of time and diesel and the landlords refuse to pay for the wasted visits.there are mostly good tenants out there but the stty ones generate far more callouts, i'd guess at a 1-1 ratio based on callouts, not occupancy. The housing associations realise this and pay accordingly and arrange the access themselves and send staff with keys but the private letting agents who contacted me looking for work expected me to foot the risks and kept trying to renegotiate prices after the fact. Just speaking from personal experience.Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Wednesday 21st September 13:25
OldGermanHeaps said:
Nope. Scum rip the door entry intercom off the wall during a drinking bender or smashes a smoke detector because bong smoke sets it off, or suffers a genuine fault, then complain to the landlord, landlord calls engineer, engineer contacts tenant directly, asks client when they would like a visit, 8am-8pm whatever suits their schedule, engineer arrives on time as arranged and client either isnt in, or shouts through the letterbox fk off i'm trying to sleep. That is a pure waste of time and diesel and the landlords refuse to pay for the wasted visits.there are mostly good tenants out there but the stty ones generate far more callouts, i'd guess at a 1-1 ratio based on callouts, not occupancy. The housing associations realise this and pay accordingly and arrange the access themselves and send staff with keys but the private letting agents who contacted me looking for work expected me to foot the risks and kept trying to renegotiate prices after the fact. Just speaking from personal experience.
These people had good previous checkable rental history and were not on income support or housing benefits?k off i'm trying to sleep. That is a pure waste of time and diesel and the landlords refuse to pay for the wasted visits.there are mostly good tenants out there but the stty ones generate far more callouts, i'd guess at a 1-1 ratio based on callouts, not occupancy. The housing associations realise this and pay accordingly and arrange the access themselves and send staff with keys but the private letting agents who contacted me looking for work expected me to foot the risks and kept trying to renegotiate prices after the fact. Just speaking from personal experience.Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Wednesday 21st September 13:25
Have seen a teacher mistreat a house and doctors tend not to look after properties to well in my experience.
My scum comment was purely related to landlords not wanting to pay for tenants who make appointments then deliberately fail to keep them without even the decency of a phone call. I think you read far more into what was written than was actually there. I rented too for quite a while. I kept my appointments with tradesmen though and never messed anyone about.
Bottom line is there are plenty of "scum" renting. I have had non payers even though they had mid tenancy started claiming from the council and people who trash the place and put pets in when they are not allowed (= garden trashed too).
There are good ones and plenty of bad ones. The law is weighted too much in favour of renters when really you as a landlord are often just trying to be helpful and keep a safe environment for them. The opposite side is they want landlords to sort out blown bulbs and stuff any normal person that owned the place themselves would and should sort out.
I will add I was a a renter once too.
I would not take offence as there are plenty of sh#t drivers too but we are all those are not we.
Pip
There are good ones and plenty of bad ones. The law is weighted too much in favour of renters when really you as a landlord are often just trying to be helpful and keep a safe environment for them. The opposite side is they want landlords to sort out blown bulbs and stuff any normal person that owned the place themselves would and should sort out.
I will add I was a a renter once too.
I would not take offence as there are plenty of sh#t drivers too but we are all those are not we.
Pip
WatchfulEye said:
This is correct. However, a periodic safety check, while a legal requirement check is not an emergency, and for the gas distributor to have forced entry to your hoouse, they will have first had to apply to court for a warrant to force entry.
Sorry only just got back too this. They had been on holiday for 3 months and so didn't get any paperwork and yes it was just a meter check. No gas leak. surveyor_101 said:
These people had good previous checkable rental history and were not on income support or housing benefits?
Have seen a teacher mistreat a house and doctors tend not to look after properties to well in my experience.
^^ Was just reading posts, but the Doctor comment caught my eye.Have seen a teacher mistreat a house and doctors tend not to look after properties to well in my experience.
We sold our previous house to a doctor and it was immaculate when we left, with a low maintenance garden and an expensively turfed front lawn we had inherited from the previous owner.
I was in that area two years later and decided to drive by the old neighbourhood.
The doctor had the same car, but the outside of the house was a total mess. It didn’t bode well for the inside.
I just put it down to long working hours and not enough free time.
surveyor_101 said:
So rangerrover are you saying your engineered would of without permission on the basis you have complied with your tenancy wording and you care not whether that is lawful?
It's in my tenancy about access for inspections but my agent won't enter if the tenant says no, regardless of what it says that won't risk it.
On the other hand I had an agent who would issue 7 days notice and he didn't care what the tenant said he would enter. He also tried a section 13 after 8 months of tenancy to increase the rent. When I said it's was unlawful and breached the tenancy he said ok I will re date it for the 12 months then and put the phone down on me.
Eventually having offered various options to the tenant I would accompany the engineer to the property and wait while he did the inspection. I would leave a polite letter saying that we had entered and undertaken a mandated safety inspection. If a tenant really wants to go bolshy and report to either the police or his mum or whoever I'm pretty comfortable accepting the consequences. It will always be the same tenant who refuses access who then moans about a lack of certificate. I know all landlords and letting agents are rotters and all tenants are perfect hard done by saints.
It's in my tenancy about access for inspections but my agent won't enter if the tenant says no, regardless of what it says that won't risk it.
On the other hand I had an agent who would issue 7 days notice and he didn't care what the tenant said he would enter. He also tried a section 13 after 8 months of tenancy to increase the rent. When I said it's was unlawful and breached the tenancy he said ok I will re date it for the 12 months then and put the phone down on me.
Eventually having offered various options to the tenant I would accompany the engineer to the property and wait while he did the inspection. I would leave a polite letter saying that we had entered and undertaken a mandated safety inspection. If a tenant really wants to go bolshy and report to either the police or his mum or whoever I'm pretty comfortable accepting the consequences. It will always be the same tenant who refuses access who then moans about a lack of certificate. I know all landlords and letting agents are rotters and all tenants are perfect hard done by saints.
Just to clarify the point regarding access to the property.
By signing a Tenancy Agreement a Tenant is agreeing to the terms contained within (as long as they are fair and reasonable) this includes granting Landlord access providing appropriate notice has been issued, usually 24 hours notice. So as a default position the Landlord or Agent can enter the property if they provide the notice to comply with the Tenancy Agreement.
However, a tenant can refuse access to the property even if the Landlord/agent has given the appropriate notice. They will of course be in breach of the contractual Agreement but the Landlord/Agent must respect their Tenants wishes and not enter the property if access is refused otherwise it is trespass and of course illegal under statue.
Remember Statute always overrides contract.
By signing a Tenancy Agreement a Tenant is agreeing to the terms contained within (as long as they are fair and reasonable) this includes granting Landlord access providing appropriate notice has been issued, usually 24 hours notice. So as a default position the Landlord or Agent can enter the property if they provide the notice to comply with the Tenancy Agreement.
However, a tenant can refuse access to the property even if the Landlord/agent has given the appropriate notice. They will of course be in breach of the contractual Agreement but the Landlord/Agent must respect their Tenants wishes and not enter the property if access is refused otherwise it is trespass and of course illegal under statue.
Remember Statute always overrides contract.
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