Police Officer Smashes Windscreen
Discussion
e21Mark][b]There has to be something to ultimately cause the officer to lose it in the manner he did[b/ said:
. Even the position of the vehicles, with the Police car diagonally blocking the road, eludes to something more than your average traffic stop.
Bottom line is that this video only tells part of the story and without the rest we are never going to be able to justify the actions of either party. Videos like this, with snippets take out of context, are just so damaging and divisive.
That's bias in it's own right. Bottom line is that this video only tells part of the story and without the rest we are never going to be able to justify the actions of either party. Videos like this, with snippets take out of context, are just so damaging and divisive.
Ultimately, he's on restricted duties and being investigated. Does that tell us anything?
And what he did was illegal. I can't stress enough that force cannot be used unless it accords with S3. Either arrest, which he wasn't, or in the prevention of a crime. That's a very high bar in the circumstances.
singlecoil said:
Passive resistance is still resistance. He persisted in failing to comply with a lawful request.
What lawful request was that? And where's your authority which says he must get out of the car if.....Edited to add, you might want to look at;
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 s1, 2, s17, s24 and s117.
Road Traffic Act 1988 Ss163 -167.
Criminal Law Act 1967 s3.
Also, whilst not relevant to driving, where you do have a legal obligation to give your name and address, one could say passive resistance is not giving your name when a PC is investigating a crime. See R vs Griffiths 1988. Griffiths refused to give his name when asked by a PC following a spate of crimes and the PCs suspicions. Held that Griffiths was not obliged to give his name. He was not obstructing the law by not doing so.
Edited by Alpinestars on Sunday 25th September 10:54
singlecoil said:
Alpinestars said:
with a driver who stopped and was passive throughout the time his windows were being smashed in.
Passive resistance is still resistance. He persisted in failing to comply with a lawful request.
ks. We've already discussed at length about whether someone has to comply with a request to get out of the car. Unless under arrest, for a stop and search or to prevent crime then he does not have to comply at all. You don't have to jump when a copper says jump, it doesn't work like that.
The police have confirmed he wasn't arrested, so can't have been that. I can't see how his reaction would be necessary or proportionate to prevent crime, the bloke was sat there passively with his keys on the dash. We didn't see the police officer go through a stop and search procedure either.
The officer requesting he get out is not making an unlawful request in that he is not prevented by law to request it, but by the same token it is not one that the bloke in the car has to automatically comply with unless it is supported in law by a specific police power, exercised properly and according to procedure by the police officer.
spookly said:
singlecoil said:
Alpinestars said:
with a driver who stopped and was passive throughout the time his windows were being smashed in.
Passive resistance is still resistance. He persisted in failing to comply with a lawful request.ks. We've already discussed at length about whether someone has to comply with a request to get out of the car. Unless under arrest, for a stop and search or to prevent crime then he does not have to comply at all. You don't have to jump when a copper says jump, it doesn't work like that.
The police have confirmed he wasn't arrested, so can't have been that. I can't see how his reaction would be necessary or proportionate to prevent crime, the bloke was sat there passively with his keys on the dash. We didn't see the police officer go through a stop and search procedure either.
The officer requesting he get out is not making an unlawful request in that he is not prevented by law to request it, but by the same token it is not one that the bloke in the car has to automatically comply with unless it is supported in law by a specific police power, exercised properly and according to procedure by the police officer.
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Why you wouldn't is irrelevant and each individuals' right and prerogative. A more relevant question is why the PC would (ie, lose it when a) it's illegal and b) you lose faith of those you are there to serve.). Without public cooperation I can imagine policing is very very difficult. So why would you antagonise someone and rightly or wrongly, turn a large amount of people against you? Lacks a huge amount of EI or is out of control.
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Had you thought that the driver might have had previous engagements with the police when he had done nothing wrong that might have resulted in him facing excessive force to cuff him or restrain him? And maybe given the attitude shown by PC Savage he feared more of the same?It is getting so bad in the US that Supreme Judicial courts are recognising that an ethnic minority running from police should not indicate they've done anything, they are just scared of the police. Link
I know it isn't as bad here as it is in the US, in part because most of our police do not routinely carry guns. But, if you had previous experience of getting rough handled by police despite your innocence how would you then react?
I'm a white, IC1, English, male. I don't dress like a copper might think a stereotype wrong 'un might dress. So I personally haven't been subject to profiling, or to the rough treatment meted out sometimes. And yet I still will not support any police who treat any of us differently.
Racism, profiling, and acting otherwise than in accordance with their legal powers is not something any of us should want from our police.
Alpinestars said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Why you wouldn't is irrelevant and each individuals right and prerogative. e21Mark said:
As I see it, there's the problem right there. It comes down to ones attitude and lack of respect. Driving on UK roads is a privilege not a right. The officer wanted to check this guy was driving in accordance with UK laws. Why not simply get out as a common courtesy if nothing else?
It's either enforcing your rights or having a chip on your shoulder depending how you view it.Rights are important, but there's also a degree of just acting like a normal human being IMO.
I suggested on a previous page that not acting like an idiot cuts both ways and if enough people choose the "I don't have to co-operate" route very quickly the laws will be changed so that they are compelled to do so and the Police will have more powers.
It seems a bit like shooting yourself in the foot where a bit of common sense would work better tbh.
e21Mark said:
As I see it, there's the problem right there. It comes down to ones attitude and lack of respect. Driving on UK roads is a privilege not a right. The officer wanted to check this guy was driving in accordance with UK laws. Why not simply get out as a common courtesy if nothing else?
Who's come out worse? Why is the PC under investigation and on restricted duties? Does he have a right to break the law? We all come across people who wind us up, and we think are in the wrong, but when those people are not acting illegally, colloquially -there's f
k all you or I can do. And if we do take the law into our own hands, there's a problem. Policing is about law enforcement and trust. He has lost the trust of a lot of the public and perhaps his employers. Way to go.
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Had you thought that the driver might have had previous engagements with the police when he had done nothing wrong that might have resulted in him facing excessive force to cuff him or restrain him? And maybe given the attitude shown by PC Savage he feared more of the same?It is getting so bad in the US that Supreme Judicial courts are recognising that an ethnic minority running from police should not indicate they've done anything, they are just scared of the police. Link
I know it isn't as bad here as it is in the US, in part because most of our police do not routinely carry guns. But, if you had previous experience of getting rough handled by police despite your innocence how would you then react?
I'm a white, IC1, English, male. I don't dress like a copper might think a stereotype wrong 'un might dress. So I personally haven't been subject to profiling, or to the rough treatment meted out sometimes. And yet I still will not support any police who treat any of us differently.
Racism, profiling, and acting otherwise than in accordance with their legal powers is not something any of us should want from our police.
I too, am an IC1 male and I was assaulted and cuffed in Richmond 2 years ago, under similar circumstances to this video. The only difference being I was de arrested at the scene and allowed to continue on my way. I did initially submit a complaint but after a lengthy discussion with senior Police and honestly looking at the part I played, I decided not to pursue it further, despite my 'rights'.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: It's either enforcing your rights or having a chip on your shoulder depending how you view it.
Rights are important, but there's also a degree of just acting like a normal human being IMO.
I suggested on a previous page that not acting like an idiot cuts both ways and if enough people choose the "I don't have to co-operate" route very quickly the laws will be changed so that they are compelled to do so and the Police will have more powers.
It seems a bit like shooting yourself in the foot where a bit of common sense would work better tbh.
I don't disagree in the main, but only one person appears to have shot himself in the foot here. Rights are important, but there's also a degree of just acting like a normal human being IMO.
I suggested on a previous page that not acting like an idiot cuts both ways and if enough people choose the "I don't have to co-operate" route very quickly the laws will be changed so that they are compelled to do so and the Police will have more powers.
It seems a bit like shooting yourself in the foot where a bit of common sense would work better tbh.
If you're bringing EI and normal behaviour into this, the bar for PC is much higher than the idiots they face everyday. It can only ever go one way if PCs start becoming all vigilante on the public.
Alpinestars said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Why you wouldn't is irrelevant and each individuals' right and prerogative. A more relevant question is why the PC would (ie, lose it when a) it's illegal and b) you lose faith of those you are there to serve.). Without public cooperation I can imagine policing is very very difficult. So why would you antagonise someone and rightly or wrongly, turn a large amount of people against you? Lacks a huge amount of EI or is out of control.
The police need people to trust them in order to have them cooperate.
With the increased use of cameras, and with the media frenzy over such events, the public has a direct view into some behaviours displayed by officers that they do not like. If the police fail to deal with these individuals then trust in the police will only worsen.
I'm certainly not suggesting trial by media and internet warrior. But there should be complete transparency throughout the process and all information on the case should be available to the public. Anything else will draw accusations of closing ranks and a whitewash.
If I was pulled over, maybe due to a plate misread and them mistaking my car for one driven by a violent drug dealer, and this happened... would that be acceptable to you?
I think the reason that many people get riled by these videos is that it shows the police acting in a way that they do not think is justified, particularly when by extension the police would also be able to do it to them.
Let's not pretend this is some rare event either. There are many videos on youtube and other sites showing really poor judgement and behaviour by police. The Met has publicly acknowledged its issues with racism.
IPCC complaints stats show that between 2005 and 2015 the number of complaints against police rose from ~23,000 to 37,000. An increase of 14,000, or around 60%.
Of course, there are stats behind that for the number investigated/disposed/withdrawn and for appeals etc. But you can read it all on that link.
The concern should be that complaints are increasing, albeit in some police areas they are stable or decreasing.
It is also very likely that many people do not bother to report or complain, I certainly wouldn't bother as I would not expect any positive outcome without concrete evidence.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Obviously not. It just increases the likelihood of a negative reaction though. Wearing a uniform doesn't mean you won't react like the rest of us though, hence their training, but had this guy simply complied with requests he would most likely have been on his way a couple of minutes later.e21Mark said:
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Had you thought that the driver might have had previous engagements with the police when he had done nothing wrong that might have resulted in him facing excessive force to cuff him or restrain him? And maybe given the attitude shown by PC Savage he feared more of the same?It is getting so bad in the US that Supreme Judicial courts are recognising that an ethnic minority running from police should not indicate they've done anything, they are just scared of the police. Link
I know it isn't as bad here as it is in the US, in part because most of our police do not routinely carry guns. But, if you had previous experience of getting rough handled by police despite your innocence how would you then react?
I'm a white, IC1, English, male. I don't dress like a copper might think a stereotype wrong 'un might dress. So I personally haven't been subject to profiling, or to the rough treatment meted out sometimes. And yet I still will not support any police who treat any of us differently.
Racism, profiling, and acting otherwise than in accordance with their legal powers is not something any of us should want from our police.
I too, am an IC1 male and I was assaulted and cuffed in Richmond 2 years ago, under similar circumstances to this video. The only difference being I was de arrested at the scene and allowed to continue on my way. I did initially submit a complaint but after a lengthy discussion with senior Police and honestly looking at the part I played, I decided not to pursue it further, despite my 'rights'.
Allowing the police to act otherwise than in accordance with the law is a very slippery slope towards a police state.
If you were assaulted and cuffed then it is down to you whether to pursue a complaint or not. The fact that this has also happened to you suggests that this is behaviour that is not particularly uncommon to the police.
Unless you are saying that you were behaving like such a colossal bell end that you agreed with the police that in hindsight their use of force was proportionate?
e21Mark said:
Obviously not. It just increases the likelihood of a negative reaction though. Wearing a uniform doesn't mean you won't react like the rest of us though, hence their training, but had this guy simply complied with requests he would most likely have been on his way a couple of minutes later.
And had the PC known the law and acted on his training, we wouldn't be here. Who do you think has come off worse? Do you think that PC being put on restricted duties and being investigated is at least an indication that he may have done the wrong thing?
Does the widespread coverage of the case help him next time he stops someone? Own and goal come to mind. Illegal ones at that.
Edited by Alpinestars on Sunday 25th September 11:37
e21Mark said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Obviously not. It just increases the likelihood of a negative reaction though. Wearing a uniform doesn't mean you won't react like the rest of us though, hence their training, but had this guy simply complied with requests he would most likely have been on his way a couple of minutes later.There is also every chance, that instead of being on his way in a couple of minutes, that he could have been manhandled to the floor with a knee in his back and cuffed. Maybe even given a bit of 'afters'.
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Had you thought that the driver might have had previous engagements with the police when he had done nothing wrong that might have resulted in him facing excessive force to cuff him or restrain him? And maybe given the attitude shown by PC Savage he feared more of the same?It is getting so bad in the US that Supreme Judicial courts are recognising that an ethnic minority running from police should not indicate they've done anything, they are just scared of the police. Link
I know it isn't as bad here as it is in the US, in part because most of our police do not routinely carry guns. But, if you had previous experience of getting rough handled by police despite your innocence how would you then react?
I'm a white, IC1, English, male. I don't dress like a copper might think a stereotype wrong 'un might dress. So I personally haven't been subject to profiling, or to the rough treatment meted out sometimes. And yet I still will not support any police who treat any of us differently.
Racism, profiling, and acting otherwise than in accordance with their legal powers is not something any of us should want from our police.
I too, am an IC1 male and I was assaulted and cuffed in Richmond 2 years ago, under similar circumstances to this video. The only difference being I was de arrested at the scene and allowed to continue on my way. I did initially submit a complaint but after a lengthy discussion with senior Police and honestly looking at the part I played, I decided not to pursue it further, despite my 'rights'.
Allowing the police to act otherwise than in accordance with the law is a very slippery slope towards a police state.
If you were assaulted and cuffed then it is down to you whether to pursue a complaint or not. The fact that this has also happened to you suggests that this is behaviour that is not particularly uncommon to the police.
Unless you are saying that you were behaving like such a colossal bell end that you agreed with the police that in hindsight their use of force was proportionate?
No one is attempting to justify / excuse the PC's actions (re breaking the window) in this case. I'm simply saying that there was clearly more that we were not privy to, that resulted in him losing his temper and taking inappropriate action. I do agree that the police as a whole are afforded far less respect nowadays and occurrences like this are more common, or possibly appear so thanks to the joys of social media. That said, suggesting an officer asking someone to get out of their vehicle (when they believe it is being driven illegally) is more about common sense than eluding to a Police state surely?
In my own case, yes the officer was heavy handed and yes, I did display some attitude therein playing my own part in what ensued, but think more was gained in us discussing what happened (after the event and with a senior officer) than opting for trial by Facebook.
The fact is there were faults on both sides. The driver for being more concerned with antagonising the officer and filming it for Facebook and the officer for his apparent loss of self control. There are no "winners".
spookly said:
There is also every chance, that instead of being on his way in a couple of minutes, that he could have been manhandled to the floor with a knee in his back and cuffed. Maybe even given a bit of 'afters'.
99% chance.From experience I know you wont be let off in a 'couple' of minutes. The other video that surfaced showed Angry Savage detaining a man in handcuffs for 25 minutes for daring to push a damaged moped down the high street.
I went to a station for a chat and because I refused to accept the policeman's offer to help me by 'just giving him my side of the story' instead I requesting for a solicitor present, I was arrested and locked up for almost 10 hours.
It is not different from what has happened in this instance. The police made a request (some on here call it a lawful order) that I tell him my side of the story. I was under no obligation to say anything by exercising my right to remain silent but I didnt do that. I was happy to give my version of events but only in the presence of a solicitor.
For this simple exercise of my right, the policeman became angry, arrested me and locked me up. I spent the next 3 years fighting this unfair treatment and just days to the trial after tampering, witholding and suppressing evidence, the police decided to settle out of court.
I really wanted this to go to trial so the police could be shown for some of the outright illegal things they do but I was advised othwrwise and I took the money and called it a day. This loss of professionalism by just 1 policeman cost the police service tens of thousands of pounds.
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