Police Officer Smashes Windscreen
Discussion
Trial by social media based on a part of the story.
The bloke shot in Charlottesville it turns out had a gun, was being told by his wife 'don't do it' and has already murderer someone in 2002.
His wife's video was also taken standing still 100 yards away but was the only information needed for all the nutters to go bats
t.
The bloke shot in Charlottesville it turns out had a gun, was being told by his wife 'don't do it' and has already murderer someone in 2002.
His wife's video was also taken standing still 100 yards away but was the only information needed for all the nutters to go bats
t.I have problems with the Police on one road were I need to stop to unload on a daily basis, on three different occasions they have told me to move my vehicle as (Unrestricted) double yellow lines mean I cannot stop there. I understand the relevant laws regarding where I can and cannot load.
When I (Politely) point out to the officer that these are unrestricted DYL meaning it's legal for me to unload / load there they always become bolshie with me and other officers jump out of the van to try and intimidate me.
The most recent, took great offence when I simply advised him that I was parked perfectly legally (Whilst unloading) and (Politely) suggested he contact a senior officer to check the relevant laws on DYL. They then threatened me with obstructing the public highway. Once they spotted the front and rear dash cams they changed tack and backed off with the parting request for the name of my employer which I duely gave them. I asked why they wanted it and was told to report me for my attitude.
Unfortunately they did not report me as it would have been amusing them trying to assert I could not load on a DYL and the camera evidence of their own attitudes.
If I make a mistake I hold my hands up and apologise, a lot of the police I've interacted with don't seem to be able to do this as they see it as losing face.
Ironically the police in that area invariably park on a regular basis on the pavement or on the same DYL I use as there is a Nandos around the corner.
I'm fortunate to have tiny percentage of the interaction where there has nothing been done unlawfully with the police as my Jamican friends report to me, but I can understand why they often find interacting with the police such a chore and due to the small minority of police acting in a certain way, they are often passive aggressive with the police and film their interactions.
When I (Politely) point out to the officer that these are unrestricted DYL meaning it's legal for me to unload / load there they always become bolshie with me and other officers jump out of the van to try and intimidate me.
The most recent, took great offence when I simply advised him that I was parked perfectly legally (Whilst unloading) and (Politely) suggested he contact a senior officer to check the relevant laws on DYL. They then threatened me with obstructing the public highway. Once they spotted the front and rear dash cams they changed tack and backed off with the parting request for the name of my employer which I duely gave them. I asked why they wanted it and was told to report me for my attitude.
Unfortunately they did not report me as it would have been amusing them trying to assert I could not load on a DYL and the camera evidence of their own attitudes.
If I make a mistake I hold my hands up and apologise, a lot of the police I've interacted with don't seem to be able to do this as they see it as losing face.
Ironically the police in that area invariably park on a regular basis on the pavement or on the same DYL I use as there is a Nandos around the corner.
I'm fortunate to have tiny percentage of the interaction where there has nothing been done unlawfully with the police as my Jamican friends report to me, but I can understand why they often find interacting with the police such a chore and due to the small minority of police acting in a certain way, they are often passive aggressive with the police and film their interactions.
e21Mark said:
In this case (apologies if addressed earlier and I missed it) wasn't the driver mistakenly identified as a disqualified driver? When it gets to the point of the pocket knife, doesn't the driver then start to declare that he ''isn't TJ''? It seems pretty clear the officer concerned believed he had stopped someone driving unlawfully and that's why he wanted the driver out of the car.
Why wait for things to escalate before declaring you're not the person the Police believe you to be? It's obvious there was an earlier conversation where the officer suggests the driver is TJ, or else he wouldn't suddenly start saying he wasn't.
Why would you start filming after that point? If I was going to guess, one might be forgiven for thinking it was because he knew he'd been wrongly identified and wanted to antagonise the officer. Had he simply got out of the car, then offered identification to prove a) he wasn't TJ and b) was driving legally, it would have been over in a couple of minutes.
With the key on the dash, could the officer not have just played the idiot drivers game and done the required checks?
Unfortunately though, the sudden decision to try and smash the window without warning, doesn't show the officer in a good light. I don't envy him for the job he does but without knowing what had happened earlier, it's hard to justify his actions.
The saddest thing though, are the comments below the video on Facebook. It's a sad reflection on the type of society we live in today and their attitude towards the Police.
ETA - Spelling of comments on FB is hilarious though.
If you look at youtube there is alot of anti police all the met are racist vids. They play up and film the incidents and keep questioning the officer and saying thee racist.Why wait for things to escalate before declaring you're not the person the Police believe you to be? It's obvious there was an earlier conversation where the officer suggests the driver is TJ, or else he wouldn't suddenly start saying he wasn't.
Why would you start filming after that point? If I was going to guess, one might be forgiven for thinking it was because he knew he'd been wrongly identified and wanted to antagonise the officer. Had he simply got out of the car, then offered identification to prove a) he wasn't TJ and b) was driving legally, it would have been over in a couple of minutes.
With the key on the dash, could the officer not have just played the idiot drivers game and done the required checks?
Unfortunately though, the sudden decision to try and smash the window without warning, doesn't show the officer in a good light. I don't envy him for the job he does but without knowing what had happened earlier, it's hard to justify his actions.
The saddest thing though, are the comments below the video on Facebook. It's a sad reflection on the type of society we live in today and their attitude towards the Police.
ETA - Spelling of comments on FB is hilarious though.
Edited by e21Mark on Sunday 25th September 08:36
The driver has a complete lack of respect for police and is trying to obstruct the officer by locking the car door and refusing to get out of the car.
Why do this if you have nothing to hide? Just to make the officers job difficult thats why!
As a result the officer appears to lose his tempter. The driver appears to have failed to identified himself or offer his ID. He obstructs the officer so the officer is entitled to remove him by force, however he appears to lose his temper so its far from text book, but I doubt something he should lose his job for.
police to a difficult job and you should treat every officer as a human being and not a racist idiot you can ignore and play games with, end of!
Edited by surveyor_101 on Sunday 25th September 12:50
dacouch said:
I have problems with the Police on one road were I need to stop to unload on a daily basis, on three different occasions they have told me to move my vehicle as (Unrestricted) double yellow lines mean I cannot stop there. I understand the relevant laws regarding where I can and cannot load.
When I (Politely) point out to the officer that these are unrestricted DYL meaning it's legal for me to unload / load there they always become bolshie with me and other officers jump out of the van to try and intimidate me.
The most recent, took great offence when I simply advised him that I was parked perfectly legally (Whilst unloading) and (Politely) suggested he contact a senior officer to check the relevant laws on DYL. They then threatened me with obstructing the public highway. Once they spotted the front and rear dash cams they changed tack and backed off with the parting request for the name of my employer which I duely gave them. I asked why they wanted it and was told to report me for my attitude.
Unfortunately they did not report me as it would have been amusing them trying to assert I could not load on a DYL and the camera evidence of their own attitudes.
If I make a mistake I hold my hands up and apologise, a lot of the police I've interacted with don't seem to be able to do this as they see it as losing face.
Ironically the police in that area invariably park on a regular basis on the pavement or on the same DYL I use as there is a Nandos around the corner.
I'm fortunate to have tiny percentage of the interaction where there has nothing been done unlawfully with the police as my Jamican friends report to me, but I can understand why they often find interacting with the police such a chore and due to the small minority of police acting in a certain way, they are often passive aggressive with the police and film their interactions.
The days of the intelligent, responsible plod are largely gone I think. Modern, younger plod have much less knowledge and an attitude to go with it. When I (Politely) point out to the officer that these are unrestricted DYL meaning it's legal for me to unload / load there they always become bolshie with me and other officers jump out of the van to try and intimidate me.
The most recent, took great offence when I simply advised him that I was parked perfectly legally (Whilst unloading) and (Politely) suggested he contact a senior officer to check the relevant laws on DYL. They then threatened me with obstructing the public highway. Once they spotted the front and rear dash cams they changed tack and backed off with the parting request for the name of my employer which I duely gave them. I asked why they wanted it and was told to report me for my attitude.
Unfortunately they did not report me as it would have been amusing them trying to assert I could not load on a DYL and the camera evidence of their own attitudes.
If I make a mistake I hold my hands up and apologise, a lot of the police I've interacted with don't seem to be able to do this as they see it as losing face.
Ironically the police in that area invariably park on a regular basis on the pavement or on the same DYL I use as there is a Nandos around the corner.
I'm fortunate to have tiny percentage of the interaction where there has nothing been done unlawfully with the police as my Jamican friends report to me, but I can understand why they often find interacting with the police such a chore and due to the small minority of police acting in a certain way, they are often passive aggressive with the police and film their interactions.
I remember being stopped when I was about 19 (over 25 years ago), driving a minibus (empty) too fast and almost crashing into a plod car. He turned round and we had a chat. One of the most useful conversations I had about driving until I did more training much later on, very informative and he didn't come over as a t
t either. It's a pity modern plod has destroyed the credibility he had and given most of us little or no respect for the average plod these days.surveyor_101 said:
If you look at youtube there is alot of anti police all the met are racist vids. They play up and film the incidents and keep questioning the officer and saying thee racist.
The driver has a complete lack of respect for police and is trying to obstruct the officer by locking the car door and refusing to get out of the car.
Why do this if you have nothing to hide? Just to make the officers job difficult thats why!
As a result the officer appears to lose his tempter. The driver appears to have failed to identified himself or offer his ID. He obstructs the officer so the officer is entitled to remove him by force, however he appears to lose his temper so its far from text book, but I doubt something he should lose his job for.
police to a difficult job and you should treat every officer as a human being and not a racist idiot you can ignore and play games with, end of!
I think most people are able to distinguish between people playing the race card and genuinely worrying police behaviour when perusing youtube.The driver has a complete lack of respect for police and is trying to obstruct the officer by locking the car door and refusing to get out of the car.
Why do this if you have nothing to hide? Just to make the officers job difficult thats why!
As a result the officer appears to lose his tempter. The driver appears to have failed to identified himself or offer his ID. He obstructs the officer so the officer is entitled to remove him by force, however he appears to lose his temper so its far from text book, but I doubt something he should lose his job for.
police to a difficult job and you should treat every officer as a human being and not a racist idiot you can ignore and play games with, end of!
Edited by surveyor_101 on Sunday 25th September 12:50
The driver might have a complete lack of respect for police. That is not a crime is it?
He isn't obstructing any lawful activity if the police officer does not have grounds to remove him or ask him to exit the vehicle.
Your attempt to use words like 'respect' as if it is something that should be given by default, and 'obstruct' when he is doing nothing of the sort, show just how silly you are being.
I respect police officers that do their job well. I do not respect all police. I certainly do not respect all decisions police make both individually and as an organisation.
People who demand respect from you rather than earn it are usually those that least deserve it in the first place. PC Savage being a case in point.
The officer does indeed lose his temper. Which he should never do. Police response and use of force should be calm, measured and proportionate. The officer is not entitled to do anything without a legal power to do it. So please educate us all as to what the obstruction was, and what Act/section grant the officer these magical powers to vandalise his vehicle.......
spookly said:
I think most people are able to distinguish between people playing the race card and genuinely worrying police behaviour when perusing youtube.
The driver might have a complete lack of respect for police. That is not a crime is it?
He isn't obstructing any lawful activity if the police officer does not have grounds to remove him or ask him to exit the vehicle.
Your attempt to use words like 'respect' as if it is something that should be given by default, and 'obstruct' when he is doing nothing of the sort, show just how silly you are being.
I respect police officers that do their job well. I do not respect all police. I certainly do not respect all decisions police make both individually and as an organisation.
People who demand respect from you rather than earn it are usually those that least deserve it in the first place. PC Savage being a case in point.
The officer does indeed lose his temper. Which he should never do. Police response and use of force should be calm, measured and proportionate. The officer is not entitled to do anything without a legal power to do it. So please educate us all as to what the obstruction was, and what Act/section grant the officer these magical powers to vandalise his vehicle.......
Respect wishes/commands/requests and having respect are not one and the same thing. If an officer requests someone do something, such as get out of a car in order to ascertain it is being driven legally, I imagine most people would see that as reasonable whether there is a specific law/directive or not. The driver might have a complete lack of respect for police. That is not a crime is it?
He isn't obstructing any lawful activity if the police officer does not have grounds to remove him or ask him to exit the vehicle.
Your attempt to use words like 'respect' as if it is something that should be given by default, and 'obstruct' when he is doing nothing of the sort, show just how silly you are being.
I respect police officers that do their job well. I do not respect all police. I certainly do not respect all decisions police make both individually and as an organisation.
People who demand respect from you rather than earn it are usually those that least deserve it in the first place. PC Savage being a case in point.
The officer does indeed lose his temper. Which he should never do. Police response and use of force should be calm, measured and proportionate. The officer is not entitled to do anything without a legal power to do it. So please educate us all as to what the obstruction was, and what Act/section grant the officer these magical powers to vandalise his vehicle.......
(Just to be clear, the window breaking is not reasonable or acceptable)
Edited by e21Mark on Sunday 25th September 14:01
dacouch said:
I have problems with the Police on one road were I need to stop to unload on a daily basis, on three different occasions they have told me to move my vehicle as (Unrestricted) double yellow lines mean I cannot stop there. I understand the relevant laws regarding where I can and cannot load.
When I (Politely) point out to the officer that these are unrestricted DYL meaning it's legal for me to unload / load there they always become bolshie with me and other officers jump out of the van to try and intimidate me.
The most recent, took great offence when I simply advised him that I was parked perfectly legally (Whilst unloading) and (Politely) suggested he contact a senior officer to check the relevant laws on DYL. They then threatened me with obstructing the public highway. Once they spotted the front and rear dash cams they changed tack and backed off with the parting request for the name of my employer which I duely gave them. I asked why they wanted it and was told to report me for my attitude.
Unfortunately they did not report me as it would have been amusing them trying to assert I could not load on a DYL and the camera evidence of their own attitudes.
If I make a mistake I hold my hands up and apologise, a lot of the police I've interacted with don't seem to be able to do this as they see it as losing face.
Ironically the police in that area invariably park on a regular basis on the pavement or on the same DYL I use as there is a Nandos around the corner.
I'm fortunate to have tiny percentage of the interaction where there has nothing been done unlawfully with the police as my Jamican friends report to me, but I can understand why they often find interacting with the police such a chore and due to the small minority of police acting in a certain way, they are often passive aggressive with the police and film their interactions.
Someone touched on the bit in bold earlier in the thread.When I (Politely) point out to the officer that these are unrestricted DYL meaning it's legal for me to unload / load there they always become bolshie with me and other officers jump out of the van to try and intimidate me.
The most recent, took great offence when I simply advised him that I was parked perfectly legally (Whilst unloading) and (Politely) suggested he contact a senior officer to check the relevant laws on DYL. They then threatened me with obstructing the public highway. Once they spotted the front and rear dash cams they changed tack and backed off with the parting request for the name of my employer which I duely gave them. I asked why they wanted it and was told to report me for my attitude.
Unfortunately they did not report me as it would have been amusing them trying to assert I could not load on a DYL and the camera evidence of their own attitudes.
If I make a mistake I hold my hands up and apologise, a lot of the police I've interacted with don't seem to be able to do this as they see it as losing face.
Ironically the police in that area invariably park on a regular basis on the pavement or on the same DYL I use as there is a Nandos around the corner.
I'm fortunate to have tiny percentage of the interaction where there has nothing been done unlawfully with the police as my Jamican friends report to me, but I can understand why they often find interacting with the police such a chore and due to the small minority of police acting in a certain way, they are often passive aggressive with the police and film their interactions.
There must be something in the training or the mindset of Police officers that makes them incapable of admitting the slightest mistake or that they got it wrong.
I was pulled for no insurance a couple of years back, not a problem as it turned out, it was a database snafu but watching the attitude of the two young Trafpol would have been amusing if it wasn't so tragic.
The one that asked me to step out of the car was all cocky and arrogant until I actually got out of my car and he realised I had about 9" in height and about 4 stone on him. He suddenly became very polite for some reason, maybe he realised that pissing someone off whilst standing next to a live lane of a motorway wasn't such a good idea? His partner did the usual standing too close to the suspect to intimidate thing which didn't work either.
After they checked with my insurance company who confirmed I was insured I was back given my car keys with a surly hostility that made Harry Enfields' 'Kevin the Teenager' look a happy bunny.
Neither of them liked or could handle the fact that they were 'wrong' They had made their minds up that I was uninsured and that they were having my car. When their master plan failed it was like they didn't know what to do.
George111 said:
The days of the intelligent, responsible plod are largely gone I think. Modern, younger plod have much less knowledge and an attitude to go with it.
I remember being stopped when I was about 19 (over 25 years ago), driving a minibus (empty) too fast and almost crashing into a plod car. He turned round and we had a chat. One of the most useful conversations I had about driving until I did more training much later on, very informative and he didn't come over as a tt either. It's a pity modern plod has destroyed the credibility he had and given most of us little or no respect for the average plod these days.
I tend to find traffic cops are generally polite and fair, especially motorbike officers.I remember being stopped when I was about 19 (over 25 years ago), driving a minibus (empty) too fast and almost crashing into a plod car. He turned round and we had a chat. One of the most useful conversations I had about driving until I did more training much later on, very informative and he didn't come over as a t
t either. It's a pity modern plod has destroyed the credibility he had and given most of us little or no respect for the average plod these days.On the way home from my parents one night with my sister, walking through the town centre on a Saturday night, I commented to my sister that it's true, when the police start looking young it means you're getting old. An officer for some reason took great offence at this and started to push me around and then threatened me with arrest if I did not immediately leave the area when my sister pointed out there was no malice in the comment and it was a conversation between us about getting older.
e21Mark said:
spookly said:
I think most people are able to distinguish between people playing the race card and genuinely worrying police behaviour when perusing youtube.
The driver might have a complete lack of respect for police. That is not a crime is it?
He isn't obstructing any lawful activity if the police officer does not have grounds to remove him or ask him to exit the vehicle.
Your attempt to use words like 'respect' as if it is something that should be given by default, and 'obstruct' when he is doing nothing of the sort, show just how silly you are being.
I respect police officers that do their job well. I do not respect all police. I certainly do not respect all decisions police make both individually and as an organisation.
People who demand respect from you rather than earn it are usually those that least deserve it in the first place. PC Savage being a case in point.
The officer does indeed lose his temper. Which he should never do. Police response and use of force should be calm, measured and proportionate. The officer is not entitled to do anything without a legal power to do it. So please educate us all as to what the obstruction was, and what Act/section grant the officer these magical powers to vandalise his vehicle.......
Respect wishes/commands/requests and having respect are not one and the same thing. If an officer requests someone do something, such as get out of a car in order to ascertain it is being driven legally, I imagine most people would see that as reasonable whether there is a specific law/directive or not. The driver might have a complete lack of respect for police. That is not a crime is it?
He isn't obstructing any lawful activity if the police officer does not have grounds to remove him or ask him to exit the vehicle.
Your attempt to use words like 'respect' as if it is something that should be given by default, and 'obstruct' when he is doing nothing of the sort, show just how silly you are being.
I respect police officers that do their job well. I do not respect all police. I certainly do not respect all decisions police make both individually and as an organisation.
People who demand respect from you rather than earn it are usually those that least deserve it in the first place. PC Savage being a case in point.
The officer does indeed lose his temper. Which he should never do. Police response and use of force should be calm, measured and proportionate. The officer is not entitled to do anything without a legal power to do it. So please educate us all as to what the obstruction was, and what Act/section grant the officer these magical powers to vandalise his vehicle.......
(Just to be clear, the window breaking is not reasonable or acceptable)
Edited by e21Mark on Sunday 25th September 14:01
Force should be an absolute last resort when presented with no other options. It often doesn't get used that way. Losing their temper, and using violent force and aggression is not what we should want from policing.
I don't think most people would have a problem with getting out, but the officer shouldn't have a problem doing it through the window either.
The main point though is that there had been nothing unlawful done by the bloke when PC Savage went a bit postal.... which probably was unlawful.
In fact I'd go as far as to say that if he does not manage to somehow justify his actions then he should be charged with criminal damage and assault. And if he is found to have acted outside the law then I would also like him to personally pay for all of the damage to the vehicle, as I'd rather it doesn't come out of the taxes we all pay.
Apart from a few extra powers granted to the police through our laws, the law applies to them and us equally.
I wouldn't be surprised if many of us have anecdotes about meeting snotty coppers.
I've been stopped driving purely as a fishing exercise at about 3 in the morning after the birth of my second child. He tried to tell me I was speeding, I informed him I was driving with cruise control set at the speed limit. He then said he suspected I'd been drinking because I was weaving, I informed him I had a dashcam he was welcome to view as would anyone investigating the complaint I'd make. He then went round kicking tyres and checking bulbs. He then had the audacity to tell me he was 'letting me off'... from what I have no idea, as he wasn't able to find anything I'd done. wker.
I've also had the police arrest someone outside my house because a house party down the street had gotten out of hand, and some ne'er do well was sat on my car after shouting and offering to fight everyone in earshot. Whilst I fully supported them arresting him, and cuffing him by force when he tried to run then struggle, I didn't think the young copper that dropped his knee forcefully into the back of the guys neck while he was face down and cuffed was acceptable at all. The bloke was already restrained by 3 other coppers. He could have seriously damaged the young guy. And while the young guy was a scummy little prick with little respect for my property I still don't agree with coppers using violence as retribution. That kid could have ended up dead or paralysed.
I've been stopped driving purely as a fishing exercise at about 3 in the morning after the birth of my second child. He tried to tell me I was speeding, I informed him I was driving with cruise control set at the speed limit. He then said he suspected I'd been drinking because I was weaving, I informed him I had a dashcam he was welcome to view as would anyone investigating the complaint I'd make. He then went round kicking tyres and checking bulbs. He then had the audacity to tell me he was 'letting me off'... from what I have no idea, as he wasn't able to find anything I'd done. w
ker.I've also had the police arrest someone outside my house because a house party down the street had gotten out of hand, and some ne'er do well was sat on my car after shouting and offering to fight everyone in earshot. Whilst I fully supported them arresting him, and cuffing him by force when he tried to run then struggle, I didn't think the young copper that dropped his knee forcefully into the back of the guys neck while he was face down and cuffed was acceptable at all. The bloke was already restrained by 3 other coppers. He could have seriously damaged the young guy. And while the young guy was a scummy little prick with little respect for my property I still don't agree with coppers using violence as retribution. That kid could have ended up dead or paralysed.
e21Mark said:
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Had you thought that the driver might have had previous engagements with the police when he had done nothing wrong that might have resulted in him facing excessive force to cuff him or restrain him? And maybe given the attitude shown by PC Savage he feared more of the same?It is getting so bad in the US that Supreme Judicial courts are recognising that an ethnic minority running from police should not indicate they've done anything, they are just scared of the police. Link
I know it isn't as bad here as it is in the US, in part because most of our police do not routinely carry guns. But, if you had previous experience of getting rough handled by police despite your innocence how would you then react?
I'm a white, IC1, English, male. I don't dress like a copper might think a stereotype wrong 'un might dress. So I personally haven't been subject to profiling, or to the rough treatment meted out sometimes. And yet I still will not support any police who treat any of us differently.
Racism, profiling, and acting otherwise than in accordance with their legal powers is not something any of us should want from our police.
I too, am an IC1 male and I was assaulted and cuffed in Richmond 2 years ago, under similar circumstances to this video. The only difference being I was de arrested at the scene and allowed to continue on my way. I did initially submit a complaint but after a lengthy discussion with senior Police and honestly looking at the part I played, I decided not to pursue it further, despite my 'rights'.
Allowing the police to act otherwise than in accordance with the law is a very slippery slope towards a police state.
If you were assaulted and cuffed then it is down to you whether to pursue a complaint or not. The fact that this has also happened to you suggests that this is behaviour that is not particularly uncommon to the police.
Unless you are saying that you were behaving like such a colossal bell end that you agreed with the police that in hindsight their use of force was proportionate?
No one is attempting to justify / excuse the PC's actions (re breaking the window) in this case. I'm simply saying that there was clearly more that we were not privy to, that resulted in him losing his temper and taking inappropriate action. I do agree that the police as a whole are afforded far less respect nowadays and occurrences like this are more common, or possibly appear so thanks to the joys of social media. That said, suggesting an officer asking someone to get out of their vehicle (when they believe it is being driven illegally) is more about common sense than eluding to a Police state surely?
In my own case, yes the officer was heavy handed and yes, I did display some attitude therein playing my own part in what ensued, but think more was gained in us discussing what happened (after the event and with a senior officer) than opting for trial by Facebook.
The fact is there were faults on both sides. The driver for being more concerned with antagonising the officer and filming it for Facebook and the officer for his apparent loss of self control. There are no "winners".
spookly said:
I wouldn't be surprised if many of us have anecdotes about meeting snotty coppers.
I've been stopped driving purely as a fishing exercise at about 3 in the morning after the birth of my second child. He tried to tell me I was speeding, I informed him I was driving with cruise control set at the speed limit. He then said he suspected I'd been drinking because I was weaving, I informed him I had a dashcam he was welcome to view as would anyone investigating the complaint I'd make. He then went round kicking tyres and checking bulbs. He then had the audacity to tell me he was 'letting me off'... from what I have no idea, as he wasn't able to find anything I'd done. wker.
I've also had the police arrest someone outside my house because a house party down the street had gotten out of hand, and some ne'er do well was sat on my car after shouting and offering to fight everyone in earshot. Whilst I fully supported them arresting him, and cuffing him by force when he tried to run then struggle, I didn't think the young copper that dropped his knee forcefully into the back of the guys neck while he was face down and cuffed was acceptable at all. The bloke was already restrained by 3 other coppers. He could have seriously damaged the young guy. And while the young guy was a scummy little prick with little respect for my property I still don't agree with coppers using violence as retribution. That kid could have ended up dead or paralysed.
I have idea how old you are but I wonder if you would be surprised to hear that officers nowadays are much better and more professional than they were when I joined in 1980?I've been stopped driving purely as a fishing exercise at about 3 in the morning after the birth of my second child. He tried to tell me I was speeding, I informed him I was driving with cruise control set at the speed limit. He then said he suspected I'd been drinking because I was weaving, I informed him I had a dashcam he was welcome to view as would anyone investigating the complaint I'd make. He then went round kicking tyres and checking bulbs. He then had the audacity to tell me he was 'letting me off'... from what I have no idea, as he wasn't able to find anything I'd done. w
ker.I've also had the police arrest someone outside my house because a house party down the street had gotten out of hand, and some ne'er do well was sat on my car after shouting and offering to fight everyone in earshot. Whilst I fully supported them arresting him, and cuffing him by force when he tried to run then struggle, I didn't think the young copper that dropped his knee forcefully into the back of the guys neck while he was face down and cuffed was acceptable at all. The bloke was already restrained by 3 other coppers. He could have seriously damaged the young guy. And while the young guy was a scummy little prick with little respect for my property I still don't agree with coppers using violence as retribution. That kid could have ended up dead or paralysed.
At that time there was much more violence dished out, and much more racism and homophobia. Of course in those days the likelihood of anyone filming an interaction with the police was virtually nil, so there are no youtube archives to back up my claim.
Nevertheless attitudes towards the public have improved immensely since those days.
XCP said:
I have idea how old you are but I wonder if you would be surprised to hear that officers nowadays are much better and more professional than they were when I joined in 1980?
At that time there was much more violence dished out, and much more racism and homophobia. Of course in those days the likelihood of anyone filming an interaction with the police was virtually nil, so there are no youtube archives to back up my claim.
Nevertheless attitudes towards the public have improved immensely since those days.
You may well be right that there is less violence dished out. Or maybe not, who knows. At that time there was much more violence dished out, and much more racism and homophobia. Of course in those days the likelihood of anyone filming an interaction with the police was virtually nil, so there are no youtube archives to back up my claim.
Nevertheless attitudes towards the public have improved immensely since those days.
Everything would be anecdotal except statistics, which won't be comprehensive either as many examples of bad policing are not reported.
Increasing IPCC complaints doesn't point towards an improvement. Especially when 20% or so relate to bad attitude/heavy handedness.
60% increase in complaints over 10 years doesn't really sound like an improvement.
Edit to add:
I fully realise the issues with the IPCC stats, as you cannot know what was not reported. Either in the past or now. We also don't know if the rate of making reports has increased.
But as the only indicator the public is fed, I suppose the IPCC stats, media stories, anecdotes from friends and strangers and our own experiences are all we can go on.
Edited by spookly on Sunday 25th September 17:50
spookly said:
XCP said:
I have idea how old you are but I wonder if you would be surprised to hear that officers nowadays are much better and more professional than they were when I joined in 1980?
At that time there was much more violence dished out, and much more racism and homophobia. Of course in those days the likelihood of anyone filming an interaction with the police was virtually nil, so there are no youtube archives to back up my claim.
Nevertheless attitudes towards the public have improved immensely since those days.
You may well be right that there is less violence dished out. Or maybe not, who knows. At that time there was much more violence dished out, and much more racism and homophobia. Of course in those days the likelihood of anyone filming an interaction with the police was virtually nil, so there are no youtube archives to back up my claim.
Nevertheless attitudes towards the public have improved immensely since those days.
Everything would be anecdotal except statistics, which won't be comprehensive either as many examples of bad policing are not reported.
Increasing IPCC complaints doesn't point towards an improvement. Especially when 20% or so relate to bad attitude/heavy handedness.
60% increase in complaints over 10 years doesn't really sound like an improvement.
I had a strange encounter some years ago, accused by TWO policemen saying I had driven down a one way street the wrong way, which I didnt.
Eventually I grabbed my clipboard from my back seat, and asked for their numbers so I could put in a complaint, at that time they started backing off, and initally wouldnt give me their numbers, I eventually got them.
When I did visit the police station and gave the desk sergents my encounter, he said "Did they book you", I said "No", he said "Whats the problem then", I said "Well they were lying and if it had gone to court, two against one I would have lost", he said "Not necessarily sir", so I dropped it, I wish to this day I had pursued it.
Anyway I dont tar them all with the same brush, some idiots in all walks of life.
I think if I was stopped by the police and asked to get out of my car, I would not hesitate to do so.
Eventually I grabbed my clipboard from my back seat, and asked for their numbers so I could put in a complaint, at that time they started backing off, and initally wouldnt give me their numbers, I eventually got them.
When I did visit the police station and gave the desk sergents my encounter, he said "Did they book you", I said "No", he said "Whats the problem then", I said "Well they were lying and if it had gone to court, two against one I would have lost", he said "Not necessarily sir", so I dropped it, I wish to this day I had pursued it.
Anyway I dont tar them all with the same brush, some idiots in all walks of life.
I think if I was stopped by the police and asked to get out of my car, I would not hesitate to do so.
Bigends said:
e21Mark said:
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
spookly said:
e21Mark said:
But why wouldn't you? I know, from previous experience, that if I start to argue or antagonise those concerned, things are likely to escalate. If I knew I had been wrongly identified as a disqualified driver why would I not just get out and present the relevant documents? What do I gain by refusing to comply?
Had you thought that the driver might have had previous engagements with the police when he had done nothing wrong that might have resulted in him facing excessive force to cuff him or restrain him? And maybe given the attitude shown by PC Savage he feared more of the same?It is getting so bad in the US that Supreme Judicial courts are recognising that an ethnic minority running from police should not indicate they've done anything, they are just scared of the police. Link
I know it isn't as bad here as it is in the US, in part because most of our police do not routinely carry guns. But, if you had previous experience of getting rough handled by police despite your innocence how would you then react?
I'm a white, IC1, English, male. I don't dress like a copper might think a stereotype wrong 'un might dress. So I personally haven't been subject to profiling, or to the rough treatment meted out sometimes. And yet I still will not support any police who treat any of us differently.
Racism, profiling, and acting otherwise than in accordance with their legal powers is not something any of us should want from our police.
I too, am an IC1 male and I was assaulted and cuffed in Richmond 2 years ago, under similar circumstances to this video. The only difference being I was de arrested at the scene and allowed to continue on my way. I did initially submit a complaint but after a lengthy discussion with senior Police and honestly looking at the part I played, I decided not to pursue it further, despite my 'rights'.
Allowing the police to act otherwise than in accordance with the law is a very slippery slope towards a police state.
If you were assaulted and cuffed then it is down to you whether to pursue a complaint or not. The fact that this has also happened to you suggests that this is behaviour that is not particularly uncommon to the police.
Unless you are saying that you were behaving like such a colossal bell end that you agreed with the police that in hindsight their use of force was proportionate?
No one is attempting to justify / excuse the PC's actions (re breaking the window) in this case. I'm simply saying that there was clearly more that we were not privy to, that resulted in him losing his temper and taking inappropriate action. I do agree that the police as a whole are afforded far less respect nowadays and occurrences like this are more common, or possibly appear so thanks to the joys of social media. That said, suggesting an officer asking someone to get out of their vehicle (when they believe it is being driven illegally) is more about common sense than eluding to a Police state surely?
In my own case, yes the officer was heavy handed and yes, I did display some attitude therein playing my own part in what ensued, but think more was gained in us discussing what happened (after the event and with a senior officer) than opting for trial by Facebook.
The fact is there were faults on both sides. The driver for being more concerned with antagonising the officer and filming it for Facebook and the officer for his apparent loss of self control. There are no "winners".
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