Police Officer Smashes Windscreen
Discussion
singlecoil said:
I must say you have a remarkably monochromatic view of things. The idea that some people pose a risk and the rest do not, and that a policeman can tell the difference without being able to either see inside their heads or into the future is an odd idea indeed.
Given the previously linked Guardian article about that poor young black man, getting back on topic slightly, that the bloke in the original video would be justified in being seriously worried about being arrested regardless of his guilt. If you were a young black man going about his lawful business and had recently seen things like that Guardian article, who is then hard stopped by a swerving police car, and then confronted by PC Savage shouting and all attitude..... would you want to get out of your car?
I think the bloke would be justified in forming an opinion that there is a small chance that he too could end up paralysed or dead, as has happened to many other people before him. Or even just get a roughing up, maybe painful restraint or other 'extras'.
The chance might be slim, but as long as it goes on and is in the media and public consciousness, the Police need to accept that some people will be very wary of them. Would you want to take a chance of getting paralysed or killed? If I wasn't a white middle aged man, and was subject to regular interactions with the police, I'd be considering my own dash cam and body cam for my own safety.
singlecoil said:
I must say you have a remarkably monochromatic view of things. The idea that some people pose a risk and the rest do not, and that a policeman can tell the difference without being able to either see inside their heads or into the future is an odd idea indeed.
Playing Devil's advocate;I must say you have a remarkably monochromatic view of things. The idea that some PCs pose a risk and the rest do not, and that a member of the public sat in his/her car can tell the difference without being able to either see inside their heads or into the future is an odd idea indeed.
Shame the guy who was paralysed didn't have a camera to record it all, and shame on the police for covering up. Maybe it's not so easy to see a good cop from a bad cop when faced with an instant decision to make.
Bigends said:
Are you saying that you are no longer able to make a judgement call over whos likely to cause you problems?
I've not suggested that you can't tell who is likely to cause issues but that is not what is you suggested. You said there are arrested people who "present no risk of fighting or escaping". The fact that someone doesn't appear likely to be a problem doesn't mean they present no risk.You've not given an example of an arrested person who presents no risk.
Cat
spookly said:
If I was getting nicked, and I have been once, I would be compliant. What's the point in fighting/running/being an arse? I was cuffed, and I found it annoying as they were putting me in the back of a van anyway - I wasn't going anywhere. That was in Avon & Somerset area.
Cuffing people when they are being compliant isn't good PR. I fully support the use of cuffs/force when appropriate, but not as routine procedure.
Whilst it would be embarrassing especially where you have been arrested for no just reason in public, having cuffs on would be the least of my worries. That is just a temporary measure and I would be more concerned about having a PNC record and spending time in a cell.Cuffing people when they are being compliant isn't good PR. I fully support the use of cuffs/force when appropriate, but not as routine procedure.
Smiley Culture 'stabbed' himself to death after being arrested because the police didn't put cuffs on him. I was arrested in a police station so there wasn't really any need for cuffs to walk 15 yards from interview room to custody desk. I wouldnt minds cuffs as long as I am properly secured in the vehicle and not given the Freddie Gray treatment
dondadda said:
Smiley Culture 'stabbed' himself to death after being arrested because the police didn't put cuffs on him.
I'm not sure what I make of this statement. Was he in a state of panic? Was he worried about what the rozzers would find during the raid? Was he of sound mind? It's just not heard of, especially in this country. I don't know the facts so I'm looking at this with an open mind but it does seem a bit harsh to blame the police for him killing himself, no?
Glassman said:
I'm not sure what I make of this statement. Was he in a state of panic? Was he worried about what the rozzers would find during the raid? Was he of sound mind?
It's just not heard of, especially in this country. I don't know the facts so I'm looking at this with an open mind but it does seem a bit harsh to blame the police for him killing himself, no?
I made that statement in support of police officers routinely handcuffing suspects they have arrested. It is a minor inconvenience compared to an arrest record or time spent in a cell. According to the police reports, Smiley Culture was placed under arrest but left unsecured as they were still removing evidence from the other parts of his house. He asked to go make himself a cup of tea and went in the kitchen and stabbed himself. If he had his hands cuffed behind his back and the police weren't treating him as a compliant suspect, he wouldn't have been able to kill himself. Remember the Stephen Oake case?It's just not heard of, especially in this country. I don't know the facts so I'm looking at this with an open mind but it does seem a bit harsh to blame the police for him killing himself, no?
You say it is not heard off but dont be fooled, it does happen. A very close friend of mine had his house raided by the police in his absence and a small amount of money (hundreds of pounds) was removed. This was not recorded anywhere. It was later discovered that the raid was due to a case of mistaken identity and when he went to retrieve his property, his money was nowhere to be found. You'll see why I tell this story in the last paragraph
It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
Smiley Culture was already on bail for the drug case and this was just a further raid in relation to the same case. There was nothing of great significance found during the raid where he killed himself. I cant see why someone who was already on bail for the case would decide to stab himself to death just because he was being arrested again.
I am wildly speculating and not saying it happened but could the policemen have found a large amount of money in the house and decided to eliminate the only person who knows about this stash, then keep it for themselves?
dondadda said:
I am wildly speculating and not saying it happened but could the policemen have found a large amount of money in the house and decided to eliminate the only person who knows about this stash, then keep it for themselves?
Are you describing the 'house raid' scene from the film 'Training Day'? The only person to blame for Smiley Culture's death was him for stabbing himself. The Met were rightly criticised for not 'supervising' him correctly. It could have been one of them he stabbed.
There's no need to handcuff everyone. I was on first-name terms with a few shoplifters, and when they got caught they'd literally walk with you and get in the back of the car themselves.
dondadda said:
You say it is not heard off but dont be fooled, it does happen. A very close friend of mine had his house raided by the police in his absence and a small amount of money (hundreds of pounds) was removed. This was not recorded anywhere. It was later discovered that the raid was due to a case of mistaken identity and when he went to retrieve his property, his money was nowhere to be found. You'll see why I tell this story in the last paragraph
It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
I suspect that Eclassy has returned. It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
Cat
Cat said:
dondadda said:
You say it is not heard off but dont be fooled, it does happen. A very close friend of mine had his house raided by the police in his absence and a small amount of money (hundreds of pounds) was removed. This was not recorded anywhere. It was later discovered that the raid was due to a case of mistaken identity and when he went to retrieve his property, his money was nowhere to be found. You'll see why I tell this story in the last paragraph
It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
I suspect that Eclassy has returned. It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
Cat
There are some relevant points for consideration regarding handcuffing and safer transportation of prisoners in this news story from 2006:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5231578.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5231578.stm
Greendubber said:
Cat said:
dondadda said:
You say it is not heard off but dont be fooled, it does happen. A very close friend of mine had his house raided by the police in his absence and a small amount of money (hundreds of pounds) was removed. This was not recorded anywhere. It was later discovered that the raid was due to a case of mistaken identity and when he went to retrieve his property, his money was nowhere to be found. You'll see why I tell this story in the last paragraph
It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
I suspect that Eclassy has returned. It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
Cat
Oakey said:
Interesting little tidbit I came across whilst reading up on another subject. Just how deep does the rabit hole go;
ETA: Also, from Michael Gillards The Untouchables, a list of the so called bent coppers;
Is what Dondadda is suggesting that bizarre when you consider the contents of that book?Google said:
Reporters demand probe after Guardian 'betrayal'
06 July 2001
Two award-winning journalists who believe they have been "betrayed" by The Guardian over an investigation into police corruption are calling for an inquiry into a letter sent to the newspaper's editor, Alan Rusbridger, by a senior Metropolitan Police officer.
Michael Gillard and Laurie Flynn want the Police Complaints Authority to find out why a letter, containing what they believe are serious allegations against them and demanding details of their investigation sources, was sent by Commander Andy Hayman to Rusbridger last August.
That letter, published for the first time in Press Gazette today, was never shown to either Gillard or Flynn by Guardian management, leading the journalists to believe they had been severely let down by the paper.
The Guardian says the letter remained, forgotten, in its files until early this year. In the letter, Hayman told Rusbridger he believed that Flynn and Gillard "may be at risk, perhaps unwittingly" of assisting a private investigator, Jonathan Rees, in "unethically or unlawfully seeking his acquittal to the serious charges he will be required to answer" in a forthcoming trial for Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Public Justice.
He asked the editor for details of all contact between Rees and the two journalists or other members of Guardian staff. He also offered Rusbridger a confidential briefing.
Gillard denies the pair - whose freelance contracts with the paper have now ended - planned to publish anything about Rees, who was subsequently convicted of the conspiracy charge. He believes there is a link between the Hayman letter and the newspaper dropping their lengthy investigations into a police anti-corruption unit - the so-called Untouchables.
Writing in Press Gazette, Gillard says The Guardian's treatment of their investigation and the manner in which it dealt with the letter is "disturbing for a newspaper that markets itself as a sleazebuster and champion of ethical journalism". He also believes that the problem in investigating police corruption may be more widespread. The Guardian, he suggests, is "not alone in this betrayal of core journalistic principles".
However, Rusbridger insists there is no connection between the letter and the dropping of the investigations - a decision which he says had been taken before the letter arrived and was based on internal and external legal advice.
Hayman's letter arrived when Rusbridger was on holiday and was dealt with by his deputy, Paul Johnson, who "placed it in his files and did not reply to it, since by that stage Michael and Laurie had been told that we felt that we had got as far as we could with their theories on police corruption", Rusbridger told Press Gazette.
He did not become aware of the letter until late January, after Gillard and Flynn, convinced of its existence, prompted him to check the files.
"It contained no serious allegations about Michael and Laurie and was in no sense an attempt to place The Guardian under any pressure," Rusbridger said. "No briefings between any Scotland Yard officer and any executive of The Guardian on or off the record occurred after the letter was received. There was not any contact so there was no pressure.
"The Guardian invested a large amount of time, money and the best legal resources we could find to back Laurie and Michael in their investigation into alleged police corruption. Our unequivocal and unanimous legal advice at the end of the day was that we could not defend the allegations that they were seeking to make."
Some familiar names in there.06 July 2001
Two award-winning journalists who believe they have been "betrayed" by The Guardian over an investigation into police corruption are calling for an inquiry into a letter sent to the newspaper's editor, Alan Rusbridger, by a senior Metropolitan Police officer.
Michael Gillard and Laurie Flynn want the Police Complaints Authority to find out why a letter, containing what they believe are serious allegations against them and demanding details of their investigation sources, was sent by Commander Andy Hayman to Rusbridger last August.
That letter, published for the first time in Press Gazette today, was never shown to either Gillard or Flynn by Guardian management, leading the journalists to believe they had been severely let down by the paper.
The Guardian says the letter remained, forgotten, in its files until early this year. In the letter, Hayman told Rusbridger he believed that Flynn and Gillard "may be at risk, perhaps unwittingly" of assisting a private investigator, Jonathan Rees, in "unethically or unlawfully seeking his acquittal to the serious charges he will be required to answer" in a forthcoming trial for Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Public Justice.
He asked the editor for details of all contact between Rees and the two journalists or other members of Guardian staff. He also offered Rusbridger a confidential briefing.
Gillard denies the pair - whose freelance contracts with the paper have now ended - planned to publish anything about Rees, who was subsequently convicted of the conspiracy charge. He believes there is a link between the Hayman letter and the newspaper dropping their lengthy investigations into a police anti-corruption unit - the so-called Untouchables.
Writing in Press Gazette, Gillard says The Guardian's treatment of their investigation and the manner in which it dealt with the letter is "disturbing for a newspaper that markets itself as a sleazebuster and champion of ethical journalism". He also believes that the problem in investigating police corruption may be more widespread. The Guardian, he suggests, is "not alone in this betrayal of core journalistic principles".
However, Rusbridger insists there is no connection between the letter and the dropping of the investigations - a decision which he says had been taken before the letter arrived and was based on internal and external legal advice.
Hayman's letter arrived when Rusbridger was on holiday and was dealt with by his deputy, Paul Johnson, who "placed it in his files and did not reply to it, since by that stage Michael and Laurie had been told that we felt that we had got as far as we could with their theories on police corruption", Rusbridger told Press Gazette.
He did not become aware of the letter until late January, after Gillard and Flynn, convinced of its existence, prompted him to check the files.
"It contained no serious allegations about Michael and Laurie and was in no sense an attempt to place The Guardian under any pressure," Rusbridger said. "No briefings between any Scotland Yard officer and any executive of The Guardian on or off the record occurred after the letter was received. There was not any contact so there was no pressure.
"The Guardian invested a large amount of time, money and the best legal resources we could find to back Laurie and Michael in their investigation into alleged police corruption. Our unequivocal and unanimous legal advice at the end of the day was that we could not defend the allegations that they were seeking to make."
ETA: Also, from Michael Gillards The Untouchables, a list of the so called bent coppers;
The Untouchables said:
THE UNTOUCHABLES
Paul Condon Commissioner (1993-2000)
John Stevens Commissioner (2000-2005); Deputy Commissioner (1998-2000)
Brian Hayes Deputy Commissioner (1993-1998)
Ian Blair Commissioner (2005- ); Deputy Commissioner (2000~-2005)
Dave Veness Assistant Commissioner
lan Johnston Assistant Commissioner
Mike Todd Assistant Commissioner
John Grieve Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roy Clark Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Bill Griffiths Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roger Gaspar Detective chief superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Bailey Detective superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Woods Detective chief inspector (Ghost Squad)
Andy Hayman Commander (CIB3/ClBlC 1999-2002)
Graham James Commander (Discipline & Complaints)
Ian Quinn Commander (CIB2)
Ian Russell Commander (replaced Quinn)
Dave Wood Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Gaspar)
Chris Jarratt Detective superintendent (CIBlC, replaced Woods)
Brian Moore Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Ethiopia)
John Coles Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Cornwall)
John Yates Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Russia)
Barry Norman Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Helios)
Martin Bridger Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Operation Ethiopia)
Bob Berger Detective chief inspector (CIBIC)
Chris McHaffey Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Jill McTigue Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Dave Pennant Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Simon Cousins Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Witness Protection Unit)
Shaun Sawyer Detective chief Superintendent, (replaced Hayman)
Bob Quick Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Wood)
Barbara Wilding Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Sawyer 2004)
Steve Roberts Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Wilding 2004)
David Zinzan Detective Superintendent (IDG, formerly CIBIC)
Tony Fuller Detective Superintendent (IDG, replaced Zinzan)
Steve Foster Detective chief inspector (IDG)
Maxine de Brunner Detective Superintendent (ACG, formerly CIB3)
Jack Kelly Detective Inspector
Steve Bazzoni Detective Inspector
Adrian Harper Detective Inspector
Maggie Palmer Detective Inspector
Peter Ward Detective Inspector
Mark Holmes Detective Inspector
Paul Condon Commissioner (1993-2000)
John Stevens Commissioner (2000-2005); Deputy Commissioner (1998-2000)
Brian Hayes Deputy Commissioner (1993-1998)
Ian Blair Commissioner (2005- ); Deputy Commissioner (2000~-2005)
Dave Veness Assistant Commissioner
lan Johnston Assistant Commissioner
Mike Todd Assistant Commissioner
John Grieve Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roy Clark Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Bill Griffiths Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roger Gaspar Detective chief superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Bailey Detective superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Woods Detective chief inspector (Ghost Squad)
Andy Hayman Commander (CIB3/ClBlC 1999-2002)
Graham James Commander (Discipline & Complaints)
Ian Quinn Commander (CIB2)
Ian Russell Commander (replaced Quinn)
Dave Wood Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Gaspar)
Chris Jarratt Detective superintendent (CIBlC, replaced Woods)
Brian Moore Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Ethiopia)
John Coles Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Cornwall)
John Yates Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Russia)
Barry Norman Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Helios)
Martin Bridger Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Operation Ethiopia)
Bob Berger Detective chief inspector (CIBIC)
Chris McHaffey Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Jill McTigue Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Dave Pennant Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Simon Cousins Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Witness Protection Unit)
Shaun Sawyer Detective chief Superintendent, (replaced Hayman)
Bob Quick Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Wood)
Barbara Wilding Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Sawyer 2004)
Steve Roberts Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Wilding 2004)
David Zinzan Detective Superintendent (IDG, formerly CIBIC)
Tony Fuller Detective Superintendent (IDG, replaced Zinzan)
Steve Foster Detective chief inspector (IDG)
Maxine de Brunner Detective Superintendent (ACG, formerly CIB3)
Jack Kelly Detective Inspector
Steve Bazzoni Detective Inspector
Adrian Harper Detective Inspector
Maggie Palmer Detective Inspector
Peter Ward Detective Inspector
Mark Holmes Detective Inspector
Edited by Oakey on Thursday 14th July 18:13
If that book was a work of fiction one of the authors wouldn't have not attended a Journalism trade industry awards ceremony for fear of being hit.
Derek Smith, a PHer and former BiB that's appeared on Mainstream Media TV News discussing what he heard about Cyril Smith, or some other dead former household name that liked having sex with children during a police training session, has mentioned officers breaking into a Burtons store and helping themselves to leather jackets?
Detainees should always be cuffed because we never know what could happen or how a detainee could conduct themselves?
So there are all those different possible scenarios of what could happen while transporting detainees but Dondadda's suggested scenario could never happen?
Detainees are not as predictable as two PH BiB playing the man and not the ball?
Perhaps the police would have a better reputation if they played the ball and not the man a bit more?
I asked the question earlier in the thread and I'll ask it again. Was PC Savage playing the man or the ball?
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 28th September 17:16
I had lunch with cops I used to work with today who were at HQ undergoing safety training refreshers today.
None routinely cuff prisoners without some reason and justification and each said they judged each prisoner on their own merits individually.
They were also having update training on the updated electronic use of force form.
ALL cuffings have to be recorded on the form though 'cooperative' cuffings and minor use of UDT required fewer details.
Handcuff use was also featured on the force intranet making it clear that all officers should ensure they have the power in law to arrest, use force or apply cuffs and that all of their actions must be justifiable in law.
I'd like to see the Avon and Somerset 'policy' that demands all prisoners are handcuffed
None routinely cuff prisoners without some reason and justification and each said they judged each prisoner on their own merits individually.
They were also having update training on the updated electronic use of force form.
ALL cuffings have to be recorded on the form though 'cooperative' cuffings and minor use of UDT required fewer details.
Handcuff use was also featured on the force intranet making it clear that all officers should ensure they have the power in law to arrest, use force or apply cuffs and that all of their actions must be justifiable in law.
I'd like to see the Avon and Somerset 'policy' that demands all prisoners are handcuffed
Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 28th September 17:21
Bigends said:
I had lunch with cops I used to work with today who were at HQ undergoing safety training refreshers today.
None routinely cuff prisoners without some reason and justification and each said they judged each prisoner on their own merits individually.
They were also having update training on the updated electronic use of force form.
ALL cuffings have to be recorded on the form though 'cooperative' cuffings and minor use of UDT required fewer details.
Handcuff use was also featured on the force intranet making it clear that all officers should ensure they have the power in law to arrest, use force or apply cuffs and that all of their actions must be justifiable in law.
I'd like to see the Avon and Somerset 'policy' that demands all prisoners are handcuffed
All well and good but I personally dont see a big deal if I am handcuffed after having been arrested. Like I said my bigger worries would be time spent in cell, possible charges and PNC record that would appear on an enhanced DBS check.None routinely cuff prisoners without some reason and justification and each said they judged each prisoner on their own merits individually.
They were also having update training on the updated electronic use of force form.
ALL cuffings have to be recorded on the form though 'cooperative' cuffings and minor use of UDT required fewer details.
Handcuff use was also featured on the force intranet making it clear that all officers should ensure they have the power in law to arrest, use force or apply cuffs and that all of their actions must be justifiable in law.
I'd like to see the Avon and Somerset 'policy' that demands all prisoners are handcuffed
Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 28th September 17:21
On the other hand I would be livid if I was handcuffed by the side of the road for half an hour just as PC Savage did the black chap in the second video while he investigated some alleged BS crimes. I would have definitely made a complaint about that.
carinaman said:
Perhaps the police would have a better reputation if they played the ball and not the man a bit more?
I asked the question earlier in the thread and I'll ask it again. Was PC Savage playing the man or the ball?
I think you addressed that question to the officers on this thread? If not, apologies, but if you did, given the comments by some of them on this thread, do you really expect an impartial, non-partisan answer?I asked the question earlier in the thread and I'll ask it again. Was PC Savage playing the man or the ball?
All I've heard is that the PC had the legal right to do what he did, ergo, it was a fair tackle.
dondadda said:
On the other hand I would be livid if I was handcuffed by the side of the road for half an hour just as PC Savage did the black chap in the second video while he investigated some alleged BS crimes. I would have definitely made a complaint about that.
If the police have got any sense they will get rid of pc Savage pronto, he hasn't shown the police in a good light.carinaman said:
Greendubber said:
Cat said:
dondadda said:
You say it is not heard off but dont be fooled, it does happen. A very close friend of mine had his house raided by the police in his absence and a small amount of money (hundreds of pounds) was removed. This was not recorded anywhere. It was later discovered that the raid was due to a case of mistaken identity and when he went to retrieve his property, his money was nowhere to be found. You'll see why I tell this story in the last paragraph
It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
I suspect that Eclassy has returned. It took a letter to his MP for him to be reimbursed. Maybe the police mislaid the money but the pertinent question is why the police removed only the pounds from where the money was found and left the dollars.
Cat
Oakey said:
Interesting little tidbit I came across whilst reading up on another subject. Just how deep does the rabit hole go;
ETA: Also, from Michael Gillards The Untouchables, a list of the so called bent coppers;
Is what Dondadda is suggesting that bizarre when you consider the contents of that book?Google said:
Reporters demand probe after Guardian 'betrayal'
06 July 2001
Two award-winning journalists who believe they have been "betrayed" by The Guardian over an investigation into police corruption are calling for an inquiry into a letter sent to the newspaper's editor, Alan Rusbridger, by a senior Metropolitan Police officer.
Michael Gillard and Laurie Flynn want the Police Complaints Authority to find out why a letter, containing what they believe are serious allegations against them and demanding details of their investigation sources, was sent by Commander Andy Hayman to Rusbridger last August.
That letter, published for the first time in Press Gazette today, was never shown to either Gillard or Flynn by Guardian management, leading the journalists to believe they had been severely let down by the paper.
The Guardian says the letter remained, forgotten, in its files until early this year. In the letter, Hayman told Rusbridger he believed that Flynn and Gillard "may be at risk, perhaps unwittingly" of assisting a private investigator, Jonathan Rees, in "unethically or unlawfully seeking his acquittal to the serious charges he will be required to answer" in a forthcoming trial for Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Public Justice.
He asked the editor for details of all contact between Rees and the two journalists or other members of Guardian staff. He also offered Rusbridger a confidential briefing.
Gillard denies the pair - whose freelance contracts with the paper have now ended - planned to publish anything about Rees, who was subsequently convicted of the conspiracy charge. He believes there is a link between the Hayman letter and the newspaper dropping their lengthy investigations into a police anti-corruption unit - the so-called Untouchables.
Writing in Press Gazette, Gillard says The Guardian's treatment of their investigation and the manner in which it dealt with the letter is "disturbing for a newspaper that markets itself as a sleazebuster and champion of ethical journalism". He also believes that the problem in investigating police corruption may be more widespread. The Guardian, he suggests, is "not alone in this betrayal of core journalistic principles".
However, Rusbridger insists there is no connection between the letter and the dropping of the investigations - a decision which he says had been taken before the letter arrived and was based on internal and external legal advice.
Hayman's letter arrived when Rusbridger was on holiday and was dealt with by his deputy, Paul Johnson, who "placed it in his files and did not reply to it, since by that stage Michael and Laurie had been told that we felt that we had got as far as we could with their theories on police corruption", Rusbridger told Press Gazette.
He did not become aware of the letter until late January, after Gillard and Flynn, convinced of its existence, prompted him to check the files.
"It contained no serious allegations about Michael and Laurie and was in no sense an attempt to place The Guardian under any pressure," Rusbridger said. "No briefings between any Scotland Yard officer and any executive of The Guardian on or off the record occurred after the letter was received. There was not any contact so there was no pressure.
"The Guardian invested a large amount of time, money and the best legal resources we could find to back Laurie and Michael in their investigation into alleged police corruption. Our unequivocal and unanimous legal advice at the end of the day was that we could not defend the allegations that they were seeking to make."
Some familiar names in there.06 July 2001
Two award-winning journalists who believe they have been "betrayed" by The Guardian over an investigation into police corruption are calling for an inquiry into a letter sent to the newspaper's editor, Alan Rusbridger, by a senior Metropolitan Police officer.
Michael Gillard and Laurie Flynn want the Police Complaints Authority to find out why a letter, containing what they believe are serious allegations against them and demanding details of their investigation sources, was sent by Commander Andy Hayman to Rusbridger last August.
That letter, published for the first time in Press Gazette today, was never shown to either Gillard or Flynn by Guardian management, leading the journalists to believe they had been severely let down by the paper.
The Guardian says the letter remained, forgotten, in its files until early this year. In the letter, Hayman told Rusbridger he believed that Flynn and Gillard "may be at risk, perhaps unwittingly" of assisting a private investigator, Jonathan Rees, in "unethically or unlawfully seeking his acquittal to the serious charges he will be required to answer" in a forthcoming trial for Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Public Justice.
He asked the editor for details of all contact between Rees and the two journalists or other members of Guardian staff. He also offered Rusbridger a confidential briefing.
Gillard denies the pair - whose freelance contracts with the paper have now ended - planned to publish anything about Rees, who was subsequently convicted of the conspiracy charge. He believes there is a link between the Hayman letter and the newspaper dropping their lengthy investigations into a police anti-corruption unit - the so-called Untouchables.
Writing in Press Gazette, Gillard says The Guardian's treatment of their investigation and the manner in which it dealt with the letter is "disturbing for a newspaper that markets itself as a sleazebuster and champion of ethical journalism". He also believes that the problem in investigating police corruption may be more widespread. The Guardian, he suggests, is "not alone in this betrayal of core journalistic principles".
However, Rusbridger insists there is no connection between the letter and the dropping of the investigations - a decision which he says had been taken before the letter arrived and was based on internal and external legal advice.
Hayman's letter arrived when Rusbridger was on holiday and was dealt with by his deputy, Paul Johnson, who "placed it in his files and did not reply to it, since by that stage Michael and Laurie had been told that we felt that we had got as far as we could with their theories on police corruption", Rusbridger told Press Gazette.
He did not become aware of the letter until late January, after Gillard and Flynn, convinced of its existence, prompted him to check the files.
"It contained no serious allegations about Michael and Laurie and was in no sense an attempt to place The Guardian under any pressure," Rusbridger said. "No briefings between any Scotland Yard officer and any executive of The Guardian on or off the record occurred after the letter was received. There was not any contact so there was no pressure.
"The Guardian invested a large amount of time, money and the best legal resources we could find to back Laurie and Michael in their investigation into alleged police corruption. Our unequivocal and unanimous legal advice at the end of the day was that we could not defend the allegations that they were seeking to make."
ETA: Also, from Michael Gillards The Untouchables, a list of the so called bent coppers;
The Untouchables said:
THE UNTOUCHABLES
Paul Condon Commissioner (1993-2000)
John Stevens Commissioner (2000-2005); Deputy Commissioner (1998-2000)
Brian Hayes Deputy Commissioner (1993-1998)
Ian Blair Commissioner (2005- ); Deputy Commissioner (2000~-2005)
Dave Veness Assistant Commissioner
lan Johnston Assistant Commissioner
Mike Todd Assistant Commissioner
John Grieve Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roy Clark Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Bill Griffiths Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roger Gaspar Detective chief superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Bailey Detective superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Woods Detective chief inspector (Ghost Squad)
Andy Hayman Commander (CIB3/ClBlC 1999-2002)
Graham James Commander (Discipline & Complaints)
Ian Quinn Commander (CIB2)
Ian Russell Commander (replaced Quinn)
Dave Wood Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Gaspar)
Chris Jarratt Detective superintendent (CIBlC, replaced Woods)
Brian Moore Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Ethiopia)
John Coles Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Cornwall)
John Yates Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Russia)
Barry Norman Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Helios)
Martin Bridger Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Operation Ethiopia)
Bob Berger Detective chief inspector (CIBIC)
Chris McHaffey Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Jill McTigue Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Dave Pennant Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Simon Cousins Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Witness Protection Unit)
Shaun Sawyer Detective chief Superintendent, (replaced Hayman)
Bob Quick Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Wood)
Barbara Wilding Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Sawyer 2004)
Steve Roberts Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Wilding 2004)
David Zinzan Detective Superintendent (IDG, formerly CIBIC)
Tony Fuller Detective Superintendent (IDG, replaced Zinzan)
Steve Foster Detective chief inspector (IDG)
Maxine de Brunner Detective Superintendent (ACG, formerly CIB3)
Jack Kelly Detective Inspector
Steve Bazzoni Detective Inspector
Adrian Harper Detective Inspector
Maggie Palmer Detective Inspector
Peter Ward Detective Inspector
Mark Holmes Detective Inspector
Paul Condon Commissioner (1993-2000)
John Stevens Commissioner (2000-2005); Deputy Commissioner (1998-2000)
Brian Hayes Deputy Commissioner (1993-1998)
Ian Blair Commissioner (2005- ); Deputy Commissioner (2000~-2005)
Dave Veness Assistant Commissioner
lan Johnston Assistant Commissioner
Mike Todd Assistant Commissioner
John Grieve Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roy Clark Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Bill Griffiths Deputy Assistant Commissioner
Roger Gaspar Detective chief superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Bailey Detective superintendent (Ghost Squad)
Dave Woods Detective chief inspector (Ghost Squad)
Andy Hayman Commander (CIB3/ClBlC 1999-2002)
Graham James Commander (Discipline & Complaints)
Ian Quinn Commander (CIB2)
Ian Russell Commander (replaced Quinn)
Dave Wood Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Gaspar)
Chris Jarratt Detective superintendent (CIBlC, replaced Woods)
Brian Moore Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Ethiopia)
John Coles Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Cornwall)
John Yates Detective superintendent (ClB3 Operation Russia)
Barry Norman Detective superintendent (CIB3 Operation Helios)
Martin Bridger Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Operation Ethiopia)
Bob Berger Detective chief inspector (CIBIC)
Chris McHaffey Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Jill McTigue Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Dave Pennant Detective chief inspector (CIB3)
Simon Cousins Detective chief inspector (CIB3 Witness Protection Unit)
Shaun Sawyer Detective chief Superintendent, (replaced Hayman)
Bob Quick Detective chief superintendent (CIB3, replaced Wood)
Barbara Wilding Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Sawyer 2004)
Steve Roberts Deputy Assistant Commissioner (replaced Wilding 2004)
David Zinzan Detective Superintendent (IDG, formerly CIBIC)
Tony Fuller Detective Superintendent (IDG, replaced Zinzan)
Steve Foster Detective chief inspector (IDG)
Maxine de Brunner Detective Superintendent (ACG, formerly CIB3)
Jack Kelly Detective Inspector
Steve Bazzoni Detective Inspector
Adrian Harper Detective Inspector
Maggie Palmer Detective Inspector
Peter Ward Detective Inspector
Mark Holmes Detective Inspector
Edited by Oakey on Thursday 14th July 18:13
If that book was a work of fiction one of the authors wouldn't have not attended a Journalism trade industry awards ceremony for fear of being hit.
Derek Smith, a PHer and former BiB that's appeared on Mainstream Media TV News discussing what he heard about Cyril Smith, or some other dead former household name that liked having sex with children during a police training session, has mentioned officers breaking into a Burtons store and helping themselves to leather jackets?
Detainees should always be cuffed because we never know what could happen or how a detainee could conduct themselves?
So there are all those different possible scenarios of what could happen while transporting detainees but Dondadda's suggested scenario could never happen?
Detainees are not as predictable as two PH BiB playing the man and not the ball?
Perhaps the police would have a better reputation if they played the ball and not the man a bit more?
I asked the question earlier in the thread and I'll ask it again. Was PC Savage playing the man or the ball?
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 28th September 17:16
At least you've had chance to use your new favorite lines about playing with bats and balls though.
Rather than PH BiB making sniping comments about other PHers they could read the book?
When police are planting Cannabis to lure, entrap suspected corrupt police officer(s) and almost 30KG of Cannabis goes missing, the suggestion of Dondadda doesn't seem that far fetched to me.
The police never dispose of, or fail to disclose evidence?
How big a leap is it from 'losing' or 'mislaying' evidence to stealing stuff?
A leather strap that was 'mislaid' due to an administrative error for instance. A little link to the book there as I didn't know there were two people called David Norris.
I can link that to the PC Savage windscreen incident as there's a possibility he's a bit racist? Or he was more likely having 'roid rage'?
If a member of the public had conducted themselves in a manner comparable to that of PC Savage hacksawing his way through a windscreen with a pen knife would they have been drugs tested?
When police are planting Cannabis to lure, entrap suspected corrupt police officer(s) and almost 30KG of Cannabis goes missing, the suggestion of Dondadda doesn't seem that far fetched to me.
The police never dispose of, or fail to disclose evidence?
How big a leap is it from 'losing' or 'mislaying' evidence to stealing stuff?
A leather strap that was 'mislaid' due to an administrative error for instance. A little link to the book there as I didn't know there were two people called David Norris.
I can link that to the PC Savage windscreen incident as there's a possibility he's a bit racist? Or he was more likely having 'roid rage'?
If a member of the public had conducted themselves in a manner comparable to that of PC Savage hacksawing his way through a windscreen with a pen knife would they have been drugs tested?
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 28th September 18:55
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff