Discussion
So I read these are illegal in halogen headlights. But it doesn't specifically say if these means reflectors (which cause scatter) or projectors, which is what xenons come with.
I ran a passat around for 2 years with a set of 6000K HID's. B5.5's have projectors in them with halogens inside. I never got flashed by anyone and passed two MOT tests with the HID's.
Furthermore, look at for example E46 330cis. They have projectors in their headlamps, but some come with xenon some come with halogen, either uses the same headlights just different bulbs (and ballasts with xenon).
Another example, is that Lexus' amongst other factory cars come with HID's as standard instead of xenons. Are police going to fine these people too?
So can someone clarify please?
I ran a passat around for 2 years with a set of 6000K HID's. B5.5's have projectors in them with halogens inside. I never got flashed by anyone and passed two MOT tests with the HID's.
Furthermore, look at for example E46 330cis. They have projectors in their headlamps, but some come with xenon some come with halogen, either uses the same headlights just different bulbs (and ballasts with xenon).
Another example, is that Lexus' amongst other factory cars come with HID's as standard instead of xenons. Are police going to fine these people too?
So can someone clarify please?
HIDs don't require projector clusters. There are plenty of OEMs that have used or are using reflector-type arrangements with HID bulbs.
In addition, the ECE regulations don't require self-leveling and washers for HIDs per se; this requirement applies to headlights above a particular lumens output. HIDs (and certain LEDs) happen to be above this threshold, therefore OEMs provide them with self-leveling and headlight washers. Having said that, there are several manufacturers who lately are offering lower-intensity HIDs (like Merc and Porsche) which don't have there installation requirement.
In addition, the ECE regulations don't require self-leveling and washers for HIDs per se; this requirement applies to headlights above a particular lumens output. HIDs (and certain LEDs) happen to be above this threshold, therefore OEMs provide them with self-leveling and headlight washers. Having said that, there are several manufacturers who lately are offering lower-intensity HIDs (like Merc and Porsche) which don't have there installation requirement.
Projectors for HIDs are different for projectors for halogen bulbs.
One has an oval shaped reflector at the back and one is circular.
To be fully legal when fitting HID's on your car you would need to use light clusters that were developed for HID's specifically, E marked HID bulbs, headlight washers and self leveling system.
One has an oval shaped reflector at the back and one is circular.
To be fully legal when fitting HID's on your car you would need to use light clusters that were developed for HID's specifically, E marked HID bulbs, headlight washers and self leveling system.
There is no case law regarding aftermarket installations.
Washers and levelling systems are only required on OEM installations.
You can do whatever you want to your headlights as long as the output white light, is it properly adjusted on dipped beam, it actually lights the way - marvellous...fill yer boots. That's it. Case closed on aftermarket HID kits.
Washers and levelling systems are only required on OEM installations.
You can do whatever you want to your headlights as long as the output white light, is it properly adjusted on dipped beam, it actually lights the way - marvellous...fill yer boots. That's it. Case closed on aftermarket HID kits.
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
There is no case law regarding aftermarket installations.
Washers and levelling systems are only required on OEM installations.
You can do whatever you want to your headlights as long as the output white light, is it properly adjusted on dipped beam, it actually lights the way - marvellous...fill yer boots. That's it. Case closed on aftermarket HID kits.
Traffic police in Glasgow regularly fine people for using aftermarket HID kits as they don't conform to type approvalWashers and levelling systems are only required on OEM installations.
You can do whatever you want to your headlights as long as the output white light, is it properly adjusted on dipped beam, it actually lights the way - marvellous...fill yer boots. That's it. Case closed on aftermarket HID kits.
Ok so what about if I decide to fit HID's and I go to a place that will fit proper, HID/Xenon projectors into my headlights. Still illegal?
Seems a bit silly to make decent, cheap headlights illegal when lots of cars such as mine which have reflector halogens fail to light up the road properly. I have had a few near misses due to my light output being too low, and people dressed in black crossing the road etc.
Would be better to make it law so all manufacturers have to put xenons or HID's in their cars from stock, surely?
Seems a bit silly to make decent, cheap headlights illegal when lots of cars such as mine which have reflector halogens fail to light up the road properly. I have had a few near misses due to my light output being too low, and people dressed in black crossing the road etc.
Would be better to make it law so all manufacturers have to put xenons or HID's in their cars from stock, surely?
The Boxster, Cayman, Mustang and, I assume, the A4 all have 25w as standard so they don't have to have washers (not sure about leveling). The 35w upgrade on the Boxster & Cayman has dynamic lights and washers; I assume the latter become a legal requirement at that point.
Re: BMW lights, there is the risk of beam scatter with the ellipsoidal projectors on the E36 as excess light is allowed through the lens around the projector and this can scatter. As such, some aftermarket kits have solid metal panels that block off the area around the projector. That said, I believe there can still be scatter with a projector as the focal point of the discharge will probably be different to that of a filament bulb.
I thought the E46ci was projector for xenon reflector for halogen but am happy to be wrong on this!
Re: BMW lights, there is the risk of beam scatter with the ellipsoidal projectors on the E36 as excess light is allowed through the lens around the projector and this can scatter. As such, some aftermarket kits have solid metal panels that block off the area around the projector. That said, I believe there can still be scatter with a projector as the focal point of the discharge will probably be different to that of a filament bulb.
I thought the E46ci was projector for xenon reflector for halogen but am happy to be wrong on this!
Edited by EJH on Tuesday 20th September 17:44
OP is right when he says that reflectors with HIDs scatter the light, but this is especially so with the earlier reflectors with no facets and that rely on a faceted lens. The Mk1 and Mk 2 Mondeos are typical. Later (Mk3 Mondeo for example) headlights with plain lenses and faceted reflectors seem to work much better. My experience with one kit some eight years ago was that it interfered with the radio making FM impossible to receive. Others report odd effects in engine management systems and control of things such as screen wipers.
EJH said:
Re: BMW lights, there is the risk of beam scatter with the ellipsoidal projectors on the E36 as excess light is allowed through the lens around the projector and this can scatter. As such, some aftermarket kits have solid metal panels that block off the area around the projector. That said, I believe there can still be scatter with a projector as the focal point of the discharge will probably be different to that of a filament bulb.
The underlined bit is the crucial point. The entire system has to be designed accordingly. See here for the technical spiel - http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/...twoblacklines said:
Seems a bit silly to make decent, cheap headlights illegal when lots of cars such as mine which have reflector halogens fail to light up the road properly. I have had a few near misses due to my light output being too low, and people dressed in black crossing the road etc.
It's perfect possible to light the road properly. The engineering has been known for years. But car makers deem lights to be a fashion accessory so they are all weird and wonderful shapes and are of course, completely different to the last model. EJH said:
.......I thought the E46ci was projector for xenon reflector for halogen but am happy to be wrong on this!
Pre-facelift E46's had reflectors for halogen bulb cars, and projectors for xenon bulb cars.Edited by EJH on Tuesday 20th September 17:44
post-facelift E46's had projectors for both halogen and xenon equipped cars.
Are they legal? Well when someone shows me a complete after-market setup that is all fully E marked then I'll be proved wrong, but no.
Will you however get in trouble for having them either at MOT time or just driving around? So long as they have been levelled correctly, most likely not.
I have no problem with them personally when people have taken the time to make sure they don't dazzle me on the road. The issue is that the majority of the "usual suspects" have not. They shove them into reflector lenses (the vast majority of new cars do not use reflectors for HID's - in fact I don't think anything currently produced does) and all you get is light bounced everywhere or two massive orbs of light that can do nothing but dazzle oncoming traffic.
When I bought my last car I paid the premium for factor fitted HID's as I wanted the light but didn't want to disturb other motorists.
What is just as bad these days are the aftermarket DRL's. As most people know these must extinguish at night (or dim considerably if they double-up as side lights) however the vast majority of those fitted, once again to the "usual suspects" do not.
Really inconsiderate drivers on the roads these days.
Will you however get in trouble for having them either at MOT time or just driving around? So long as they have been levelled correctly, most likely not.
I have no problem with them personally when people have taken the time to make sure they don't dazzle me on the road. The issue is that the majority of the "usual suspects" have not. They shove them into reflector lenses (the vast majority of new cars do not use reflectors for HID's - in fact I don't think anything currently produced does) and all you get is light bounced everywhere or two massive orbs of light that can do nothing but dazzle oncoming traffic.
When I bought my last car I paid the premium for factor fitted HID's as I wanted the light but didn't want to disturb other motorists.
What is just as bad these days are the aftermarket DRL's. As most people know these must extinguish at night (or dim considerably if they double-up as side lights) however the vast majority of those fitted, once again to the "usual suspects" do not.
Really inconsiderate drivers on the roads these days.
4rephill said:
Pre-facelift E46's had reflectors for halogen bulb cars, and projectors for xenon bulb cars.
post-facelift E46's had projectors for both halogen and xenon equipped cars.
That's ci only, isn't it? The facelift saloons and estates still had reflectors with halogens, didn't they?post-facelift E46's had projectors for both halogen and xenon equipped cars.
twoblacklines said:
Ok so what about if I decide to fit HID's and I go to a place that will fit proper, HID/Xenon projectors into my headlights. Still illegal?
Seems a bit silly to make decent, cheap headlights illegal when lots of cars such as mine which have reflector halogens fail to light up the road properly. I have had a few near misses due to my light output being too low, and people dressed in black crossing the road etc.
Would be better to make it law so all manufacturers have to put xenons or HID's in their cars from stock, surely?
There are plenty of aftermarket Halogen bulbs that give around 90-120% extra light and are still road legal. Cost about £30-40 a pair. The cheapest and legal solution.Seems a bit silly to make decent, cheap headlights illegal when lots of cars such as mine which have reflector halogens fail to light up the road properly. I have had a few near misses due to my light output being too low, and people dressed in black crossing the road etc.
Would be better to make it law so all manufacturers have to put xenons or HID's in their cars from stock, surely?
Edited to add: I used these on my Octavia Scout in dip and main beam and could light up a reflective surface (road sign) at more than one kilometre away. Absolutely acceptable. Don't forget HID (Xenon) is only fitted to the dip beam, not the main beam because of the slow start up time, no possibility to use for main beam 'flash'.
Edited by KevinCamaroSS on Wednesday 21st September 09:58
KevinCamaroSS said:
Don't forget HID (Xenon) is only fitted to the dip beam, not the main beam because of the slow start up time, no possibility to use for main beam 'flash'.
Might be true on some cars but I only have the one bulb on my 370z lamp unit Edited by KevinCamaroSS on Wednesday 21st September 09:58
KevinCamaroSS said:
There are plenty of aftermarket Halogen bulbs that give around 90-120% extra light and are still road legal. Cost about £30-40 a pair. The cheapest and legal solution.
Edited to add: I used these on my Octavia Scout in dip and main beam and could light up a reflective surface (road sign) at more than one kilometre away. Absolutely acceptable. Don't forget HID (Xenon) is only fitted to the dip beam, not the main beam because of the slow start up time, no possibility to use for main beam 'flash'.
Agreed on aftermarket halogen bulbs - either Osram Nightbreaker or Philips X-treme Vision offer more light output, but at the expense of a shorter life. I found the Philips ones lasted about 2 years, on average.Edited to add: I used these on my Octavia Scout in dip and main beam and could light up a reflective surface (road sign) at more than one kilometre away. Absolutely acceptable. Don't forget HID (Xenon) is only fitted to the dip beam, not the main beam because of the slow start up time, no possibility to use for main beam 'flash'.
Edited by KevinCamaroSS on Wednesday 21st September 09:58
Reflector HIDs tend to use older D2R bulbs with part of the bulb blanked off with a metal plate. For projectors these aren't needed, hence D2S.
There are no legal retrofit HID kits, as no OEM bulb manufacturer produces an e-marked bulb suitable for retrofit into a non-HID housing (note that the base of a HID bulb is entirely different to an H bulb)
HID can be used for main beam as well, but it's mainly on more expensive vehicles and uses a moving flap in front of the bulb so you don't switch bulbs - it's one, but the beam pattern varies. Also modern cars have fast start HIDs which are used for flash - D3S bulbs in our S5 are fast start and there's no H bulb fitted for flash.
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