Wedding supplier issue
Discussion
simoncrowe said:
we have had to change the date of the wedding and the venue dressers have confirmed this date is acceptable to them. We have also had to change the venue which, again, the venue dressers have said would be fine. However, upon us choosing the new venue the venue dressers have said they will not work at that venue due to issues they have had in the past with the venue losing some of their items.
So have I got this straight?"Sorry, I need to change my wedding date to [new date], is that ok?"
"Yes, that's fine."
"We're also going to be moving to a new venue, but it'll still be [sensible distance] from where we were originally, is that ok?"
"Yes, that's fine."
"Ok, here are the new venue details."
"Oh no, we don't like them. Find someone else, and we're keeping your money."
simoncrowe said:
they have never sent us any terms and conditions and no terms and conditions are present on their website?
"Give me my money back and f
k off" springs to mind. (This is almost certainly not how you should approach them, obviously).Edited by InitialDave on Friday 23 September 01:00
InitialDave said:
simoncrowe said:
we have had to change the date of the wedding and the venue dressers have confirmed this date is acceptable to them. We have also had to change the venue which, again, the venue dressers have said would be fine. However, upon us choosing the new venue the venue dressers have said they will not work at that venue due to issues they have had in the past with the venue losing some of their items.
So have I got this straight?"Sorry, I need to change my wedding date to [new date], is that ok?"
"Yes, that's fine."
"We're also going to be moving to a new venue, but it'll still be [sensible distance] from where we were originally, is that ok?"
"Yes, that's fine."
"Ok, here are the new venue details."
"Oh no, we don't like them. Find someone else, and we're keeping your money."
simoncrowe said:
they have never sent us any terms and conditions and no terms and conditions are present on their website?
"Give me my money back and fk off" springs to mind. (This is almost certainly not how you should approach them, obviously).They have also threatened to take legal action for slander even though I have never even threatened this. All I have said a few emails back was that if this is resolved amicably I will definitely leave positive feedback for them for their assistance in this matter
simoncrowe said:
Yes this is entirely correct. I have approached it as you have said however I have offered to pay them any reasonable expenses they have incurred.
They have also threatened to take legal action for slander even though I have never even threatened this. All I have said a few emails back was that if this is resolved amicably I will definitely leave positive feedback for them for their assistance in this matter
Legal action for slander? Que? Bunch of jokers. They have also threatened to take legal action for slander even though I have never even threatened this. All I have said a few emails back was that if this is resolved amicably I will definitely leave positive feedback for them for their assistance in this matter
You've been too kind, and too informal. Don't talk about feedback, or costs, you're being dragged in the wrong direction and it's just allowing them to muddy the waters.
Tell them to read The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and suggest they take legal advice if they are unsure how it applies to them, or what they should have done to be compliant with the law. Tell them in accordance with the same regs that you wish to cancel your agreement with immediate effect and request your full deposit back with in seven days, or you'll bring up the matter with Trading Standards.
Do you have legal coverage with your house insurance?
JustinP1 said:
Legal action for slander? Que? Bunch of jokers.
You've been too kind, and too informal. Don't talk about feedback, or costs, you're being dragged in the wrong direction and it's just allowing them to muddy the waters.
Tell them to read The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and suggest they take legal advice if they are unsure how it applies to them, or what they should have done to be compliant with the law. Tell them in accordance with the same regs that you wish to cancel your agreement with immediate effect and request your full deposit back with in seven days, or you'll bring up the matter with Trading Standards.
Do you have legal coverage with your house insurance?
I have listed extracts from the Consumer Contracts (information, cancellation and additional charges) regulations 2013 that they are in breach of and have sent them a link to the whole document for them to read as per one of your previous replies. I have requested they provide a full refund or come back to me with what they consider to be reasonable expenses they have incurred so far. I have requested this is done within 7 days or I will file a money claim online and it will be up to them to defend it in court and for a judge to decide what their reasonable expenses are. Thank you Justin for your helpYou've been too kind, and too informal. Don't talk about feedback, or costs, you're being dragged in the wrong direction and it's just allowing them to muddy the waters.
Tell them to read The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and suggest they take legal advice if they are unsure how it applies to them, or what they should have done to be compliant with the law. Tell them in accordance with the same regs that you wish to cancel your agreement with immediate effect and request your full deposit back with in seven days, or you'll bring up the matter with Trading Standards.
Do you have legal coverage with your house insurance?
frankenstein12 said:
Seems to me to be a lucky escape for them to have got rid of you. They should just refund you and move on and be grateful.
That's entirely unfair.He wanted to move venue more than a year out.
And now he wants his deposit back.
Which he is entitled to once they have mitigated their reasonable costs (in this case essentially zero or close to it).
In fact, if they manage to resell that weekend they haven't lost anything at all.
What possible grounds do you have to say it's a "lucky escape for them"????
simoncrowe said:
JustinP1 said:
Legal action for slander? Que? Bunch of jokers.
You've been too kind, and too informal. Don't talk about feedback, or costs, you're being dragged in the wrong direction and it's just allowing them to muddy the waters.
Tell them to read The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and suggest they take legal advice if they are unsure how it applies to them, or what they should have done to be compliant with the law. Tell them in accordance with the same regs that you wish to cancel your agreement with immediate effect and request your full deposit back with in seven days, or you'll bring up the matter with Trading Standards.
Do you have legal coverage with your house insurance?
I have listed extracts from the Consumer Contracts (information, cancellation and additional charges) regulations 2013 that they are in breach of and have sent them a link to the whole document for them to read as per one of your previous replies. I have requested they provide a full refund or come back to me with what they consider to be reasonable expenses they have incurred so far. I have requested this is done within 7 days or I will file a money claim online and it will be up to them to defend it in court and for a judge to decide what their reasonable expenses are. Thank you Justin for your helpYou've been too kind, and too informal. Don't talk about feedback, or costs, you're being dragged in the wrong direction and it's just allowing them to muddy the waters.
Tell them to read The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and suggest they take legal advice if they are unsure how it applies to them, or what they should have done to be compliant with the law. Tell them in accordance with the same regs that you wish to cancel your agreement with immediate effect and request your full deposit back with in seven days, or you'll bring up the matter with Trading Standards.
Do you have legal coverage with your house insurance?
The company/sole trader was legally obliged to provide you with written terms, including their cancellation terms, and also informing you of your legal right to cancel within 14 days.
They failed to do that, so you have the legal right to cancel extended. You've not asked them to start completing the service, so you should get your full deposit back.
It really is as straightforward as that. They need to give you back your money in full.
The outcome for the trader might be this (hopefully they've read this far):
Offence relating to the failure to give notice of the right to cancel
19.—(1) A trader is guilty of an offence if the trader enters into an off-premises contract to which regulation 10 applies but fails to give the consumer the information listed in paragraph (l), (m) or (n) of Schedule 2 in accordance with that regulation.
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under paragraph (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 23 September 16:33
walm said:
frankenstein12 said:
Seems to me to be a lucky escape for them to have got rid of you. They should just refund you and move on and be grateful.
That's entirely unfair.He wanted to move venue more than a year out.
And now he wants his deposit back.
Which he is entitled to once they have mitigated their reasonable costs (in this case essentially zero or close to it).
In fact, if they manage to resell that weekend they haven't lost anything at all.
What possible grounds do you have to say it's a "lucky escape for them"????
As to their costs how do you or he know what their costs were? Just because it was a year out does not mean they have not already spent time working on his wedding event.
I work in project management. When I get approval for a project regardless of whether it starts in two days or two years I prep everything that can be prepped there and then including a small mountain of health and safety docs +-100 pages each of which has to be custom tailored to each differing site, I contact the site where works are to be undertaken, I start organising resources, materials etc.
If this company are any good they will have started prep already. A change in date means any documents prepped need changing. If they have any items outsourced they have to contact the suppliers and notify them of change etc.
All of these things along with simply talking to the customer and dealing with correspondence from them or related to them takes time. The customer does not see this and does not realise quite how much time is spent on all of this behind the scenes before the actual event takes place.
I don't want to be harsh but the op is coming across as bullish towards the company and I feel fails to see the realities involved.
Edited by frankenstein12 on Friday 23 September 16:47
frankenstein12 said:
Because he comes across as being difficult. Changes date. Then changes venue. Then wants a refund when they find out the venue he wants is blacklisted by them.
As to their costs how do you or he know what their costs were? Just because it was a year out does not mean they have not already spent time working on his wedding event.
Mate, they are putting in some lights and covering some chairs not planning a fricking space launch.As to their costs how do you or he know what their costs were? Just because it was a year out does not mean they have not already spent time working on his wedding event.
I know how much their costs were because I can add up zero and zero to make zero.
Given they were happy with a venue change - it's pretty obvious ZERO prep work will have been done.
Arguably they might be able to be complete gits and claim for their time meeting the OP and whatnot but even that is a stretch since you usually do that lots of times without earning a penny - it's called SELLING.
Look at it another way - if they resell a similar scale wedding for the same weekend at the same price - what have they lost?
Answer ZERO.
So would you agree they should refund him 100% in that case?
My reading of the regs makes it appear to me that it's entirely obvious that they should.
And in the meantime the MAX they could ask for is some tiny amount for the sales pitch.
frankenstein12 said:
If this company are any good they will have started prep already. A change in date means any documents prepped need changing. If they have any items outsourced they have to contact the suppliers and notify them of change etc.
It is a year away!!!!They were happy with a venue change!!!
And you accuse ME of "failing to see the realities involved".
I repeat - THEY ARE COVERING SOME CHAIRS.
frankenstein12 said:
If this company are any good they will have started prep already.
Seeing as they turned up to a sales pitch without any written information, and deal exclusively with consumers without taking the time to learn the basics of consumer law then I think we can discount that possibility.walm said:
frankenstein12 said:
If this company are any good they will have started prep already. A change in date means any documents prepped need changing. If they have any items outsourced they have to contact the suppliers and notify them of change etc.
It is a year away!!!!They were happy with a venue change!!!
And you accuse ME of "failing to see the realities involved".
I repeat - THEY ARE COVERING SOME CHAIRS.
Just because they were happy with a venue change does not mean they did not have to make changes to work already done. I do not know exactly what they have to do whether they have to do any risk assessment docs for example but if they do they would have had to change all risk assessment docs to reflect new venue and new date.
These are things you do as part of a project that the customer does not get directly billed for as its part of the job and wrapped up as part of the overall cost but if a customer then decides not to go ahead that time spent on every change, every phone call etc with the customer needs to be covered somehow.
That is the point of a deposit. They take a deposit as they will be putting in work before the actual event and that work is time and a cost that has to be covered.
Edited by frankenstein12 on Friday 23 September 17:34
frankenstein12 said:
I do not know exactly what they have to do whether they have to do any risk assessment docs for example...
The very first thing they had to do was provide the OP with written terms of business, including informing his of his legal right to cancel, allowing him time to digest in his own home the full terms provided and decide if that service was indeed right for him.They haven't done even that. They've done nothing. So, by law, they are obliged to allow the OP to cancel without making any deduction to the deposit.
ETA: The reason that these laws are passed because too many companies do not deal with consumers in a fair and open way. Not providing written terms of business and lawful cancellation terms is an example of that. This company have learnt the hard way. Some people just aren't cut out for business. However, the consumer should not lose out because of that.
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 23 September 17:59
JustinP1 said:
frankenstein12 said:
I do not know exactly what they have to do whether they have to do any risk assessment docs for example...
The very first thing they had to do was provide the OP with written terms of business, including informing his of his legal right to cancel, allowing him time to digest in his own home the full terms provided and decide if that service was indeed right for him.They haven't done even that. They've done nothing. So, by law, they are obliged to allow the OP to cancel without making any deduction to the deposit.
ETA: The reason that these laws are passed because too many companies do not deal with consumers in a fair and open way. Not providing written terms of business and lawful cancellation terms is an example of that. This company have learnt the hard way. Some people just aren't cut out for business. However, the consumer should not lose out because of that.
The Regulations have been in force for over 2 years - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regul...
The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills put forth a considerable amount of preparatory educational material. As did other business oriented organisations.
The fact that there are still proprietors/directors who are either ignorant or think they can get away with flouting the law is both deplorable and depressing in equal measure.
The fact that the CMA felt the need only six months ago to issue this to wedding and event venue providers speaks for itself - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wedding...
frankenstein12 said:
I work in project management.
My bet is that this relates exclusively to B2B transactions and has all to do with consumer law. frankenstein12 said:
Some stuff
They were dressing the venue by putting some covers on chairs and tying some pretty bows on them, putting up some lights and drapes. Not exactly something they have done any work on so far. As far as the law is concerned I have been more than fair in offering them the chance to retrieve their reasonable expenses.I have not yet told them they have committed an offence relating to not giving me the cancellation terms. I am still awaiting their response to my last email.
JustinP1 said:
Seeing as they turned up to a sales pitch without any written information, and deal exclusively with consumers without taking the time to learn the basics of consumer law then I think we can discount that possibility.
They may be a hopeless company on the admin side but presumably they must do a good job. Sounds like giving £380 back is a cheap way of getting rid of a nightmare customer.cb31 said:
They may be a hopeless company on the admin side but presumably they must do a good job. Sounds like giving £380 back is a cheap way of getting rid of a nightmare customer.
I presume you would just let them keep the £380 without trying to fight for it then? I wish I had as much money as you to not even care about £380 for a service you have not yet receivedGassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff