Can I do 70 here?
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Look again at the Streetview. The link provided is a VERY carefully chosen position. You can see the end of the island ahead, immediately after the no U-turn sign. Rotate 180deg. You can just about see the end of the island, just after the other no U-turn sign. That's an island in the middle of a single carriageway, with the sole job of prevent raging wuckfits from turning right out of the service road just next to the camera position. If you're in any doubt, then zoom out to the aerial view, and it becomes VERY obvious...
Whilst the OP's example isn't a particularly good one, there are times when 'is that a central reservation?' is a worthwhile question. These two spring to mind as they used to be local,however, I've seen a degree of ambiguity in plenty of other places.
https://goo.gl/maps/i3VisnD5d8m
https://goo.gl/maps/hSDJR4gZ2tA2
Neither are particularly wise places to be doing 70 as they lead into junctions, but I wouldn't be 100% confident of the legalality.
Dark85 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Look again at the Streetview. The link provided is a VERY carefully chosen position. You can see the end of the island ahead, immediately after the no U-turn sign. Rotate 180deg. You can just about see the end of the island, just after the other no U-turn sign. That's an island in the middle of a single carriageway, with the sole job of prevent raging wuckfits from turning right out of the service road just next to the camera position. If you're in any doubt, then zoom out to the aerial view, and it becomes VERY obvious...
Whilst the OP's example isn't a particularly good one, there are times when 'is that a central reservation?' is a worthwhile question. These two spring to mind as they used to be local,however, I've seen a degree of ambiguity in plenty of other places.
https://goo.gl/maps/i3VisnD5d8m
https://goo.gl/maps/hSDJR4gZ2tA2
Neither are particularly wise places to be doing 70 as they lead into junctions, but I wouldn't be 100% confident of the legalality.
TooMany2cvs said:
The first one has end of DC signage, so you'd be on solid ground. The second one is definitely trickier - but I'd agree that it's not where I'd be looking to put it to the test.
The second road linked to also has warning signs for the end of the DC.https://goo.gl/maps/2WKZt6PxhRu
Cat
Dark85 said:
Whilst the OP's example isn't a particularly good one, there are times when 'is that a central reservation?' is a worthwhile question.
These two spring to mind as they used to be local,however, I've seen a degree of ambiguity in plenty of other places.
https://goo.gl/maps/i3VisnD5d8m
https://goo.gl/maps/hSDJR4gZ2tA2
Neither are particularly wise places to be doing 70 as they lead into junctions, but I wouldn't be 100% confident of the legalality.
IMO the first one is a DC, further down to road you get these signs, repeated in the distance with yellow background.These two spring to mind as they used to be local,however, I've seen a degree of ambiguity in plenty of other places.
https://goo.gl/maps/i3VisnD5d8m
https://goo.gl/maps/hSDJR4gZ2tA2
Neither are particularly wise places to be doing 70 as they lead into junctions, but I wouldn't be 100% confident of the legalality.
The second one is a tricky one as on face value it really looks like a central reservation, ie land between two opposing carriageways. Ignoring the issue of the unwise nature of covering that section at 70, imo it's a traffic island as if you spin the camera round, traffic going the other way doesn't see the dual carriageway ends sign as in the above photo but these.
Extract from traffic signs regs below.
Bit of a dog's breakfast at times.
FiF said:
Bit of a dog's breakfast at times.
No kidding!!This is another road I ride down occasionally - it is/was a dual carriageway, but at least it shows the speed limit:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.0660902,0.438400...
xjay1337 said:
60mph limit unless seperated as in dual carriageway :-)
On the a303 there's a camera on an uphill bit (the first passing place in about 5 miles on a road often used by Lorries).
Plenty of people have been caught out for doing 70. Bit naughty IMO
I got caught doing 70 there, and had to make a £60 contribution to the Taliwagon Scamera Partnership's Christmas party fund (or learnt a £60 lesson)On the a303 there's a camera on an uphill bit (the first passing place in about 5 miles on a road often used by Lorries).
Plenty of people have been caught out for doing 70. Bit naughty IMO
They also drew an SP60 on my licence in pencil, as obviously didn't enough saved from the £60 for ink
mcflurry said:
I got caught doing 70 there, and had to make a £60 contribution to the Taliwagon Scamera Partnership's Christmas party fund (or learnt a £60 lesson)
They also drew an SP60 on my licence in pencil, as obviously didn't enough saved from the £60 for ink
Wonder why not SP30 Exceeding statutory speed limit on a public road but SP60 Undefined speed limit offence.They also drew an SP60 on my licence in pencil, as obviously didn't enough saved from the £60 for ink
Can someone in the know clarify what actually constitutes a dual carriageway?
I thought it was a dual carriageway if the traffic in either direction was divided by a continous physical barrier of some kind, whether it was an actual steel barrier, a line of trees, or even just a 30ft grassy ditch.
I understand that the number of lanes on each side of the carriagway has no effect on whether it's DC or not, it's all about that central divide physically separating them, but does it have to be armco?
The stretch of A33 from Reading, south towards Basingstoke is initially what I consider DC as there's a bloody great grass divide between the north and southbound carriageways, so I've always assumed 70mph is the limit despite there not being armco set in the grass divide. Can someone clarify?
I thought it was a dual carriageway if the traffic in either direction was divided by a continous physical barrier of some kind, whether it was an actual steel barrier, a line of trees, or even just a 30ft grassy ditch.
I understand that the number of lanes on each side of the carriagway has no effect on whether it's DC or not, it's all about that central divide physically separating them, but does it have to be armco?
The stretch of A33 from Reading, south towards Basingstoke is initially what I consider DC as there's a bloody great grass divide between the north and southbound carriageways, so I've always assumed 70mph is the limit despite there not being armco set in the grass divide. Can someone clarify?
Muddle238 said:
Can someone in the know clarify what actually constitutes a dual carriageway?
I thought it was a dual carriageway if the traffic in either direction was divided by a continous physical barrier of some kind, whether it was an actual steel barrier, a line of trees, or even just a 30ft grassy ditch.
I understand that the number of lanes on each side of the carriagway has no effect on whether it's DC or not, it's all about that central divide physically separating them, but does it have to be armco?
The stretch of A33 from Reading, south towards Basingstoke is initially what I consider DC as there's a bloody great grass divide between the north and southbound carriageways, so I've always assumed 70mph is the limit despite there not being armco set in the grass divide. Can someone clarify?
I think you are correct, someone might find a better link the the law rather than the highway code but I could not find it.....I thought it was a dual carriageway if the traffic in either direction was divided by a continous physical barrier of some kind, whether it was an actual steel barrier, a line of trees, or even just a 30ft grassy ditch.
I understand that the number of lanes on each side of the carriagway has no effect on whether it's DC or not, it's all about that central divide physically separating them, but does it have to be armco?
The stretch of A33 from Reading, south towards Basingstoke is initially what I consider DC as there's a bloody great grass divide between the north and southbound carriageways, so I've always assumed 70mph is the limit despite there not being armco set in the grass divide. Can someone clarify?
A dual carriageway road is defined as:
Cat
TSRGD 2016 said:
a road which comprises a central reservation
A "central reservation" is defined as:TSRGD 2016 said:
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Number of lanes is irrelevant and there is no definition of what the "permanent work" must be.(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Cat
Cat said:
A dual carriageway road is defined as:
Cat
Plus as mentioned earlier there is no definition of what and what does not comprise a traffic island.TSRGD 2016 said:
a road which comprises a central reservation
A "central reservation" is defined as:TSRGD 2016 said:
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Number of lanes is irrelevant and there is no definition of what the "permanent work" must be.(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Cat
ferrariF50lover said:
We're supposed to know the speed limit by the type of road.
We're supposed to know the type of road from its design.
Which designs constitute which type of road is imprecisely defined.
And we get fined for not knowing?
This is starting to seem a little bit unfair.
The only real imprecision is around the point at which a traffic island becomes a central reservation. The fact that I've never come across, nor even heard of (and am pretty sure no one else here has), anyone who has received a fine as a result of believing a traffic island was in fact a central reservation leads me to suspect that it's not unfair and is a non-issue. We're supposed to know the type of road from its design.
Which designs constitute which type of road is imprecisely defined.
And we get fined for not knowing?
This is starting to seem a little bit unfair.
Cat
ferrariF50lover said:
We're supposed to know the speed limit by the type of road.
We're supposed to know the type of road from its design.
Which designs constitute which type of road is imprecisely defined.
And we get fined for not knowing?
This is starting to seem a little bit unfair.
If you can't tell for absolute certain the speed limit on a road within about ten seconds travelling, your observation sucks.We're supposed to know the type of road from its design.
Which designs constitute which type of road is imprecisely defined.
And we get fined for not knowing?
This is starting to seem a little bit unfair.
ferrariF50lover said:
We're supposed to know the speed limit by the type of road.
We're supposed to know the type of road from its design.
Which designs constitute which type of road is imprecisely defined.
And we get fined for not knowing?
This is starting to seem a little bit unfair.
It's a limit, not a target. If you're not sure, slow down. Nothing will happen because you're 2 minutes late for something.We're supposed to know the type of road from its design.
Which designs constitute which type of road is imprecisely defined.
And we get fined for not knowing?
This is starting to seem a little bit unfair.
speedking31 said:
mcflurry said:
I got caught doing 70 there, and had to make a £60 contribution to the Taliwagon Scamera Partnership's Christmas party fund (or learnt a £60 lesson)
They also drew an SP60 on my licence in pencil, as obviously didn't enough saved from the £60 for ink
Wonder why not SP30 Exceeding statutory speed limit on a public road but SP60 Undefined speed limit offence.They also drew an SP60 on my licence in pencil, as obviously didn't enough saved from the £60 for ink
Biker 1 said:
Probably a dumb question so go easy on me, but do the following count as dual carriageways & therefore 70mph limit:
No central reservation on A25:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2612677,0.037514...
This section of A27 does have a central reservation:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8610877,0.034592...
The A25 example is west of the Grasshopper pub between Westerham and Limpsfield and is a classic '2&1' marked only by white paint to create an uphill overtaking lane.No central reservation on A25:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2612677,0.037514...
This section of A27 does have a central reservation:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8610877,0.034592...
Passing HGVs on such inclines is rendered more difficult now that they can legally do 50mph on s/c roads.
The A27 one is by the Coriecollies kennels and cattery. It's not a single example. There is a whole series of them between the Beddingham and Southerham roundabouts.
That whole stretch is also a '2&1' favouring westbound traffic.
xjay1337 said:
On the a303 there's a camera on an uphill bit (the first passing place in about 5 miles on a road often used by Lorries).
I'll put money on it being the one west of Chicklade just past Knoyle Down Farm: strategically place for maximum effect - https://goo.gl/maps/7NXYDDG7K4M2Dark85 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Look again at the Streetview. The link provided is a VERY carefully chosen position. You can see the end of the island ahead, immediately after the no U-turn sign. Rotate 180deg. You can just about see the end of the island, just after the other no U-turn sign. That's an island in the middle of a single carriageway, with the sole job of prevent raging wuckfits from turning right out of the service road just next to the camera position. If you're in any doubt, then zoom out to the aerial view, and it becomes VERY obvious...
Whilst the OP's example isn't a particularly good one, there are times when 'is that a central reservation?' is a worthwhile question. These two spring to mind as they used to be local,however, I've seen a degree of ambiguity in plenty of other places.
https://goo.gl/maps/i3VisnD5d8m
https://goo.gl/maps/hSDJR4gZ2tA2
Neither are particularly wise places to be doing 70 as they lead into junctions, but I wouldn't be 100% confident of the legalality.
brman said:
Muddle238 said:
Can someone in the know clarify what actually constitutes a dual carriageway?
I thought it was a dual carriageway if the traffic in either direction was divided by a continous physical barrier of some kind, whether it was an actual steel barrier, a line of trees, or even just a 30ft grassy ditch.
I understand that the number of lanes on each side of the carriagway has no effect on whether it's DC or not, it's all about that central divide physically separating them, but does it have to be armco?
The stretch of A33 from Reading, south towards Basingstoke is initially what I consider DC as there's a bloody great grass divide between the north and southbound carriageways, so I've always assumed 70mph is the limit despite there not being armco set in the grass divide. Can someone clarify?
I think you are correct, someone might find a better link the the law rather than the highway code but I could not find it.....I thought it was a dual carriageway if the traffic in either direction was divided by a continous physical barrier of some kind, whether it was an actual steel barrier, a line of trees, or even just a 30ft grassy ditch.
I understand that the number of lanes on each side of the carriagway has no effect on whether it's DC or not, it's all about that central divide physically separating them, but does it have to be armco?
The stretch of A33 from Reading, south towards Basingstoke is initially what I consider DC as there's a bloody great grass divide between the north and southbound carriageways, so I've always assumed 70mph is the limit despite there not being armco set in the grass divide. Can someone clarify?
https://goo.gl/maps/uKJo85zWpkF2
https://goo.gl/maps/5kFBV6opj9r
Cat said:
A dual carriageway road is defined as:
Cat
So this is a dual carriageway - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2098154,-0.48782...TSRGD 2016 said:
a road which comprises a central reservation
A "central reservation" is defined as:TSRGD 2016 said:
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Number of lanes is irrelevant and there is no definition of what the "permanent work" must be.(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction
Cat
PF62 said:
So this is a dual carriageway - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2098154,-0.48782...
<counts carriageways>Yep.
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