NHS Trust allowing harassment of staff via parking charges
Discussion
Countdown said:
Devil2575 said:
Why does an employer need to use the services of a private parking company to enforce rules in a staff car park? Do you think that is a reasonable thing for an employer to do? I don't.
There are a couple of reasons I can think of.(a) It's cheaper
(b) They're not just enforcing against staff. We used it when the main offenders were the Public
There is nothing management want more than a reasonable happy workforce. It means lower turnover, more productivity, less stress. I've worked in places where this sort of thing was used. There's always been a good reason for it.
I'd understand if the space was shared with the public, that would make sense because you do not have a relationship with the public like you do with your staff.
If they have a genuine problem with staff persistently breaking the rules then there are other/better ways to deal with it rather than bringing in a system where first time offenders can be penalised for what might have been a mistake. To be honest if you have persistent offenders then you should be using appropriate measures to manage them out of the organisation. We have a points system on our site, but there are no fines and it is operated in a reasonable fashion.
I agree that management should want a happy and reasonable workforce but that does not mean that their actions always result in one.
Gavia said:
Nope. Disagree, my comment stated fault on both sides, you're just having a "stick it the man" union style rant with no evidence. My experience of staff car parks is that it's a hugely emotive area that is often spoiled by some staff members believing the rules don't apply to them.
Then you deal with them through a disciplinary process, not by bringing in a private parking firm.Gavia said:
Why do you think it's all down to management? If there was no need to police it, then I'm sure they wouldn't. The problem will be on both sides and the staff need to look at themselves too, as there is highly likely to be a minority of them who are causing the problems for the majority.
Management will have made the decision to bring in a private parking firm.If you have a minority who do not follow the rules then you deal with them. You don't bring in a private parking firm. Any employee who continues to break the rules after having had a discussion with their line manager about it then really needs to be taken down the formal discipline route. If you have people working for you who persistently break rules then you really need to ask why you employ them at all.
Devil2575 said:
Gavia said:
Nope. Disagree, my comment stated fault on both sides, you're just having a "stick it the man" union style rant with no evidence. My experience of staff car parks is that it's a hugely emotive area that is often spoiled by some staff members believing the rules don't apply to them.
Then you deal with them through a disciplinary process, not by bringing in a private parking firm.There is a solution, which I've seen implemented elsewhere. Simply remove all free and reserved parking for everyone. I refer back to the minority spoiling it for the majority. Making a mistake once is easy, but continuing to make it is a problem. The difficulty with giving a warning rather than a fine, is that everyone takes it as a god given right and abuses the warning system, as they know there's no penalty for the first time.
Tom1312 said:
I would think you'll find it isn't harassment in legal terms as they are entitled to chase you for these charges.
The fact that they don't pursue them us meaningless as clearly people do pay.
We don't have parking sufficient for the number of staff, you just have to walk a bit further.
You're mistaken. NOTHING a private parking firm does is legal. The fact that they don't pursue them us meaningless as clearly people do pay.
We don't have parking sufficient for the number of staff, you just have to walk a bit further.
Devil2575 said:
Gavia said:
Nope. Disagree, my comment stated fault on both sides, you're just having a "stick it the man" union style rant with no evidence. My experience of staff car parks is that it's a hugely emotive area that is often spoiled by some staff members believing the rules don't apply to them.
Then you deal with them through a disciplinary process, not by bringing in a private parking firm.If that happened to me, I'd walk out - only pausing to relieve myself on the manager's desk.
Gavia said:
Nope. Disagree, my comment stated fault on both sides, you're just having a "stick it the man" union style rant with no evidence. My experience of staff car parks is that it's a hugely emotive area that is often spoiled by some staff members believing the rules don't apply to them.
You won't get anything "union style" from meGavia said:
Devil2575 said:
Gavia said:
Nope. Disagree, my comment stated fault on both sides, you're just having a "stick it the man" union style rant with no evidence. My experience of staff car parks is that it's a hugely emotive area that is often spoiled by some staff members believing the rules don't apply to them.
Then you deal with them through a disciplinary process, not by bringing in a private parking firm.There is a solution, which I've seen implemented elsewhere. Simply remove all free and reserved parking for everyone. I refer back to the minority spoiling it for the majority. Making a mistake once is easy, but continuing to make it is a problem. The difficulty with giving a warning rather than a fine, is that everyone takes it as a god given right and abuses the warning system, as they know there's no penalty for the first time.
You deal with the minority, be it removal of their parking rights or whatever.
Even if everyone did take the warning as a right how much of a problem have you got if everyone only breaks the rules once over a set period of time? Not a big one I'd wager. After all what can staf do in a staff car park that is so awful? I guess they could not park within the marked bay and deny another the use of a single space, but again, that can easily be dealt with.
I persnally think the whole idea of bringing in a 3rd party company to fine employees is utter madness and a clear sign that there is a problem. If your employees breaking the rules is creating such an issue that measures like this need to be taken you need to be talking to the people responsible for hiring.
Devil2575 pretty much sums up my position on this, and I too have a wife who is in the exact same position, i.e persecuted for trying to park in her staff car park at work, barrier access only.
To give one example of when she received a ticket, we have two cars both of which are permitted and have a pass to use the car park. She placed her normal pass in the window of her courtesy car given to her during a service, along with a note stating "courtesy car - cat in for service". Ticket, despite the fact the correct pass was present along with the note, as well as the car being 2 years old and no doubt seen daily over that time by the enforcement people in yellow waste coats and walkie talkies.
I hear of the nightmare of trying to park there, not just her but also colleaugues, many of whom use the on site nursery for their kids whilst they are at work. I have heard stories of nurses being p to 60 minutes late due to being unable to park, as well as nurses walking a mile into the darkness at midnight to fetch their car during the winter. Numerous "incident" or "near miss" forms are handed in as wards are understaffed whilst this is going on, but as usual, all ignored and not given any notice because as usual, nobody really cares.
To give one example of when she received a ticket, we have two cars both of which are permitted and have a pass to use the car park. She placed her normal pass in the window of her courtesy car given to her during a service, along with a note stating "courtesy car - cat in for service". Ticket, despite the fact the correct pass was present along with the note, as well as the car being 2 years old and no doubt seen daily over that time by the enforcement people in yellow waste coats and walkie talkies.
I hear of the nightmare of trying to park there, not just her but also colleaugues, many of whom use the on site nursery for their kids whilst they are at work. I have heard stories of nurses being p to 60 minutes late due to being unable to park, as well as nurses walking a mile into the darkness at midnight to fetch their car during the winter. Numerous "incident" or "near miss" forms are handed in as wards are understaffed whilst this is going on, but as usual, all ignored and not given any notice because as usual, nobody really cares.
Devil2575 said:
Gavia said:
Why do you think it's all down to management? If there was no need to police it, then I'm sure they wouldn't. The problem will be on both sides and the staff need to look at themselves too, as there is highly likely to be a minority of them who are causing the problems for the majority.
Management will have made the decision to bring in a private parking firm.If you have a minority who do not follow the rules then you deal with them. You don't bring in a private parking firm. Any employee who continues to break the rules after having had a discussion with their line manager about it then really needs to be taken down the formal discipline route. If you have people working for you who persistently break rules then you really need to ask why you employ them at all.
It would make far more sense just to remove their parking privileges.
ETA: Arguably the Private parking Firm IS a disciplinary process by other means. If the employee doesn't like it they can lodge a grievance. If you think your employer takes the mick why work for them?
Dizeee said:
I hear of the nightmare of trying to park there, not just her but also colleaugues, many of whom use the on site nursery for their kids whilst they are at work. I have heard stories of nurses being p to 60 minutes late due to being unable to park, as well as nurses walking a mile into the darkness at midnight to fetch their car during the winter. Numerous "incident" or "near miss" forms are handed in as wards are understaffed whilst this is going on, but as usual, all ignored and not given any notice because as usual, nobody really cares.
That situation is exactly why parking is rationed / controlled. There isn't enough supply to meet demand. It's the same situation outside most people's houses where there might be one or two spaces but the household needs 3/4 cars. People end up parking everywhere.MikeGoodwin said:
You're mistaken. NOTHING a private parking firm does is legal.
I get a distinct feeling from your post that you don't like private parking firms very much.However, last time I checked, that wasn't enough to make them illegal. There's been plenty of documented court cases proving they are, in fact legal, when the correct processes are followed.
hth
Ian
Devil2575 said:
So the answer to a problem caused by a minority is to remove free parking from everyone? Really? You think that is the answer? Collective punishment for the actions of a few? This is IMHO a terrible idea and one that will only serve to alienate all the staff, the majority of whom will be playing by the rules.
You deal with the minority, be it removal of their parking rights or whatever.
Even if everyone did take the warning as a right how much of a problem have you got if everyone only breaks the rules once over a set period of time? Not a big one I'd wager. After all what can staf do in a staff car park that is so awful? I guess they could not park within the marked bay and deny another the use of a single space, but again, that can easily be dealt with.
I persnally think the whole idea of bringing in a 3rd party company to fine employees is utter madness and a clear sign that there is a problem. If your employees breaking the rules is creating such an issue that measures like this need to be taken you need to be talking to the people responsible for hiring.
You've got a view and I've got a different one, neither of us is right and neither is wrong necessarily. However, the idea that all staff are entitled to free parking is flawed. I doubt there are many companies operating today who have sufficient parking available for all staff to be guaramteed a parking space. You deal with the minority, be it removal of their parking rights or whatever.
Even if everyone did take the warning as a right how much of a problem have you got if everyone only breaks the rules once over a set period of time? Not a big one I'd wager. After all what can staf do in a staff car park that is so awful? I guess they could not park within the marked bay and deny another the use of a single space, but again, that can easily be dealt with.
I persnally think the whole idea of bringing in a 3rd party company to fine employees is utter madness and a clear sign that there is a problem. If your employees breaking the rules is creating such an issue that measures like this need to be taken you need to be talking to the people responsible for hiring.
That's the key starting point. If there are too many staff and too few spaces, then rules need to be applied, how that is subsequently enforced is down to the actions of those benefitting from the spaces and whether management can spare the time to deal with those breaking the rules. The idea that staff should be able to ignore the rules is a recipe for anarchy and not the responsibility of the hospital administration to resolve. The simple solution (and one I've seen applied, but not done so myself) is to remove the benefit from all. It removes the burden on an already overstretched administration in that area at least.
I have yet to see anyone explain/justify why a PPC whose only motive is profit is required to police a car park where entry is controlled by a swipe card operated barrier and those cards are exclusive to staff (see the original post). The business model operated by the majority of PPCs relies for the bottom line on ticketing people so there is an incentive to create as many rules as possible, many really petty, to boost their takings. The standard form of contract frequently vests total power with the PPC. Unless the principal (i.e. the NHS Trust) has the final say on whether a PCN is to be cancelled the wheel is rigged. If the Trust does have that power you need admin staff to deal with appeals so you're right back to square one.
I don't know why you're still blathering on about the cost to the NHS of providing adequate parking provision for staff and patients, it's bugger all to do with that.
It's this, and particularly where facilities for patients are concerned, it's monstrous;
It's this, and particularly where facilities for patients are concerned, it's monstrous;
Downward said:
Not allowed.
Have to have a Green Travel plan.
The council won't give permission to build car parks over a certain level.
Core elements of an active travel plan will
• Set targets for reducing the number of single occupancy car journeys to your NHS site, in line with your Trust’s overall sustainable development action plan.
• Encourage more sustainable forms of travel to the site, for example cycling, walking, car sharing or using the bus or train.
• Reduce the amount of travel undertaken for work by encouraging alternatives e.g. web, video and tele conferencing.
• Introduce a at rate for business mileage - regardless of the mode of transport and encourage the use of Band A ef cient vehicles.
• Provide the supporting infrastructure e.g. Lockers, showers, secure bike storage.
• Improve cycle and route safety by installing better lighting and signing.
• Collaborate with staff, local community, businesses and transport providers to develop a travel solution that
is tailored to your area.
• Promote the new approach to travelling for all staff, patients and visitors via your communications depart-
ment e.g. produce maps marked with active travel options.
Big problem in this area due to 2 hospitals and the university
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/health/queen-...
Have to have a Green Travel plan.
The council won't give permission to build car parks over a certain level.
Core elements of an active travel plan will
• Set targets for reducing the number of single occupancy car journeys to your NHS site, in line with your Trust’s overall sustainable development action plan.
• Encourage more sustainable forms of travel to the site, for example cycling, walking, car sharing or using the bus or train.
• Reduce the amount of travel undertaken for work by encouraging alternatives e.g. web, video and tele conferencing.
• Introduce a at rate for business mileage - regardless of the mode of transport and encourage the use of Band A ef cient vehicles.
• Provide the supporting infrastructure e.g. Lockers, showers, secure bike storage.
• Improve cycle and route safety by installing better lighting and signing.
• Collaborate with staff, local community, businesses and transport providers to develop a travel solution that
is tailored to your area.
• Promote the new approach to travelling for all staff, patients and visitors via your communications depart-
ment e.g. produce maps marked with active travel options.
Big problem in this area due to 2 hospitals and the university
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/health/queen-...
Red Devil said:
I have yet to see anyone explain/justify why a PPC whose only motive is profit is required to police a car park where entry is controlled by a swipe card operated barrier and those cards are exclusive to staff (see the original post). The business model operated by the majority of PPCs relies for the bottom line on ticketing people so there is an incentive to create as many rules as possible, many really petty, to boost their takings. The standard form of contract frequently vests total power with the PPC. Unless the principal (i.e. the NHS Trust) has the final say on whether a PCN is to be cancelled the wheel is rigged. If the Trust does have that power you need admin staff to deal with appeals so you're right back to square one.
Most businesses exist to make profit, so let's not demonise that element of the PPC. Here's an explanation, as to why they may be needed. You have 500 staff working rotational shifts on a 24/7 basis. That means that at any point you're only going to have a portion of the 500 working. Sometimes you'll have lots working, sometimes fewer. All of these staff have a swipe card to access the staff car park on a first come, first parked basis. However, all are expected to park within a recognised space only and nowhere else within the car park. The car park can fit 150 cars in there. I've made the numbers up to make the point, so don't focus on that aspect.
When the car park is full, it only takes a few of the "entitled generation" to ignore the rules and park there anyway and it can make things awkward for those parking correctly. The hospital administration can then either mess about with disciplinary sanctions, which is your idea and way too draconian IMO, or simply start to apply a small fine via a PPC. Continued breaches could result in disciplinary action though.
It's all about actions and consequences and quite fair IMO.
Countdown said:
Devil2575 said:
Gavia said:
Why do you think it's all down to management? If there was no need to police it, then I'm sure they wouldn't. The problem will be on both sides and the staff need to look at themselves too, as there is highly likely to be a minority of them who are causing the problems for the majority.
Management will have made the decision to bring in a private parking firm.If you have a minority who do not follow the rules then you deal with them. You don't bring in a private parking firm. Any employee who continues to break the rules after having had a discussion with their line manager about it then really needs to be taken down the formal discipline route. If you have people working for you who persistently break rules then you really need to ask why you employ them at all.
It would make far more sense just to remove their parking privileges.
ETA: Arguably the Private parking Firm IS a disciplinary process by other means. If the employee doesn't like it they can lodge a grievance. If you think your employer takes the mick why work for them?
I agree though, it does make sense to remove their parking privillages. What doesn't make sense is to punish the entire workforce because of the actions of a few.
By employing a parking firm you are effectively getting them to manage employees who break the rules. If you need a 3rd party company to come in and manage your employees in this way then you need better managers IMHO.
The last bit is my point. Why would you work for them? If I had a choice I would not work for a company that employed a 3rd party parkimg firm. Draconiman, collective punishment like this will only serve to drive away the people who can go, so typically your strongest performers.
I've seen it before, where a company slowly erodes staff benefits while expecting ever increasing flexibility from them. Eventually anyone who's any good f
ks off and you end up with mediocrity. Edited by Devil2575 on Wednesday 5th October 12:30
Gavia said:
You've got a view and I've got a different one, neither of us is right and neither is wrong necessarily. However, the idea that all staff are entitled to free parking is flawed. I doubt there are many companies operating today who have sufficient parking available for all staff to be guaramteed a parking space.
I think that were there is sufficient space availible Hospital staff should be given free parking. I never said entitled.Gavia said:
That's the key starting point. If there are too many staff and too few spaces, then rules need to be applied, how that is subsequently enforced is down to the actions of those benefitting from the spaces and whether management can spare the time to deal with those breaking the rules. The idea that staff should be able to ignore the rules is a recipe for anarchy and not the responsibility of the hospital administration to resolve. The simple solution (and one I've seen applied, but not done so myself) is to remove the benefit from all. It removes the burden on an already overstretched administration in that area at least.
I never said staff should be able to ignore the rules and the majority will not as long as the system is properly managed. Removal of a benefit from all because of the actions of a few is not good management. It's effectively an absence of management. This issue should be dealt with through line management and it wouldn't be too time consuming once everyone had seen that the rules were being enforced. Devil2575 said:
In my industry staff are expected to follow simple rules all the time and if they can't someone could get killed.
It's not that they don't know how to follow rules. It's more arrogance than anything else. When I worked in the NHS Consultants were a law unto themselves. They would quite happily park on double yellows / yellow hatched areas. One numpty even parked in the ambulance bay outside A&E and nobody is going to discipline a consultant because he parks like a muppet. The only difference between a Consultant and God is that God doesn't think he's a Consultant!Devil2575 said:
By employing a parking firm you are effectively getting them to manage employees who break the rules. If you need a 3rd party company to come in and manage your employees in this way then you need better managers IMHO.
We'll have to agree to disagree 
Getting a parking firm in is cheaper/more efficient. Not sure why it's needed if access is restricted though. I'm only going off past personal experience. Nobody likes playing traffic warden at work with their mates so its less hassle all round if an external firm is doing it.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff