NHS Trust allowing harassment of staff via parking charges
Discussion
Gavia said:
You've failed to acknowledge that sometimes those parking are at fault and lay all the blame at the feet of the parking company.
You still don't get it. Of course there will be times when some staff might be inconsiderate enough to take up two bays or park outside of one altogether. It's so bleeding obvious that it didn't need my acknowledgement. Otoh a £40-£60 penalty for a slipped or missing permit is complete overkill. A white list of VRMs isn't rocket science and the ticket should then be cancelled without any further ado.The issue I'm concerned about is not the parking problem(s): it's the chosen solution which allows a third party to do whatever it pleases without any checks and balances. The private parking industry is demonstrably incapable of self regulation and needs to put its house in order. Unfortunately the government, having been taken for a ride when clamping was outlawed and allowed the original proposals in the PoFA Bill to be watered down, is not inclined to do much about it now. The first step would be a statutory appeals system like London Tribunals/TPT. The current system is fatally flawed. For example The IPC/IAS is a sick joke and everyone with an ounce of knowledge knows it.
Given you have taken your ball away in a huff though I don't expect a response.
Red Devil said:
Gavia said:
You've failed to acknowledge that sometimes those parking are at fault and lay all the blame at the feet of the parking company.
You still don't get it. Of course there will be times when some staff might be inconsiderate enough to take up two bays or park outside of one altogether. It's so bleeding obvious that it didn't need my acknowledgement. Otoh a £40-£60 penalty for a slipped or missing permit is complete overkill. A white list of VRMs isn't rocket science and the ticket should then be cancelled without any further ado.The issue I'm concerned about is not the parking problem(s): it's the chosen solution which allows a third party to do whatever it pleases without any checks and balances. The private parking industry is demonstrably incapable of self regulation and needs to put its house in order. Unfortunately the government, having been taken for a ride when clamping was outlawed and allowed the original proposals in the PoFA Bill to be watered down, is not inclined to do much about it now. The first step would be a statutory appeals system like London Tribunals/TPT. The current system is fatally flawed. For example The IPC/IAS is a sick joke and everyone with an ounce of knowledge knows it.
Given you have taken your ball away in a huff though I don't expect a response.
Personally, there are far to many ignorant lazy 'entitled' people to allow any parking to be softly managed. Once people know they can get away with parking where they like on other peoples property for free, they will just cause utter chaos.
The Surveyor said:
Personally, there are far to many ignorant lazy 'entitled' people to allow any parking to be softly managed. Once people know they can get away with parking where they like on other peoples property for free, they will just cause utter chaos.
I'm not sure I agree with this mentaility, especially not if we're talking about employees. It sounds very much like "If you don't stand over them and watch them all the time they'll just take the piss"
Devil2575 said:
I'm not sure I agree with this mentaility, especially not if we're talking about employees.
It sounds very much like "If you don't stand over them and watch them all the time they'll just take the piss"
Some employees are great. Some take the p155.It sounds very much like "If you don't stand over them and watch them all the time they'll just take the piss"
Some people park in accordance with the rules. Some take the p155.
Countdown said:
Devil2575 said:
I'm not sure I agree with this mentaility, especially not if we're talking about employees.
It sounds very much like "If you don't stand over them and watch them all the time they'll just take the piss"
Some employees are great. Some take the p155.It sounds very much like "If you don't stand over them and watch them all the time they'll just take the piss"
Some people park in accordance with the rules. Some take the p155.
I'm talking in general now and not specific to parking.
Most employees in my experience if managed properly don't take the piss and want to do a good job, especially if they feel valued and appreciated.
Devil2575 said:
Employees who take the piss should be managed out of the organisation or at least encouraged to leave
I'm talking in general now and not specific to parking.
Most employees in my experience if managed properly don't take the piss and want to do a good job, especially if they feel valued and appreciated.
And what if it's the management who are taking the piss?I'm talking in general now and not specific to parking.
Most employees in my experience if managed properly don't take the piss and want to do a good job, especially if they feel valued and appreciated.
In my particular case, able-bodied company directors and even the company owner, who were regularly abusing the only disabled space meaning that I, a blue-badge holder, couldn't park there.
Even after starting a grievance, (fat load of good that did as the HR admin did nothing to discipline the offenders-although she eventually had to resign due to that), the abuse still continued.
I had to get my union involved and eventually ACAS, who were astounded at the ignorance and arrogance of the management of this company.
Unfortunately, I'm still working at this crappy family run company and I'm desperate to leave but being disabled, it's almost impossible to find another job that I can physically do.
mp3manager said:
And what if it's the management who are taking the piss?
In my particular case, able-bodied company directors and even the company owner, who were regularly abusing the only disabled space meaning that I, a blue-badge holder, couldn't park there.
Even after starting a grievance, (fat load of good that did as the HR admin did nothing to discipline the offenders-although she eventually had to resign due to that), the abuse still continued.
I had to get my union involved and eventually ACAS, who were astounded at the ignorance and arrogance of the management of this company.
Unfortunately, I'm still working at this crappy family run company and I'm desperate to leave but being disabled, it's almost impossible to find another job that I can physically do.
Bad situation, not much you can do when the senior management are tossers. In my particular case, able-bodied company directors and even the company owner, who were regularly abusing the only disabled space meaning that I, a blue-badge holder, couldn't park there.
Even after starting a grievance, (fat load of good that did as the HR admin did nothing to discipline the offenders-although she eventually had to resign due to that), the abuse still continued.
I had to get my union involved and eventually ACAS, who were astounded at the ignorance and arrogance of the management of this company.
Unfortunately, I'm still working at this crappy family run company and I'm desperate to leave but being disabled, it's almost impossible to find another job that I can physically do.
Devil2575 said:
The Surveyor said:
Personally, there are far to many ignorant lazy 'entitled' people to allow any parking to be softly managed. Once people know they can get away with parking where they like on other peoples property for free, they will just cause utter chaos.
I'm not sure I agree with this mentaility, especially not if we're talking about employees. It sounds very much like "If you don't stand over them and watch them all the time they'll just take the piss"
The Surveyor said:
I think you have much more faith in the average employee than I, but we can agree to differ on that. Have you any comment on the other part of my post, would you be so dismissive of the parking controls if the NHS Trust was managing the parking in the same way as a private parking company and using the revenue for health care funding?
I think that if you think the best of people you get the best out of people.In answer to your question, no. It's not about where the money goes, it's the fact that an employer is fining employees for what is a minor transgression or possibly even a mistake.
The Surveyor said:
Red Devil said:
Gavia said:
You've failed to acknowledge that sometimes those parking are at fault and lay all the blame at the feet of the parking company.
You still don't get it. Of course there will be times when some staff might be inconsiderate enough to take up two bays or park outside of one altogether. It's so bleeding obvious that it didn't need my acknowledgement. Otoh a £40-£60 penalty for a slipped or missing permit is complete overkill. A white list of VRMs isn't rocket science and the ticket should then be cancelled without any further ado.The issue I'm concerned about is not the parking problem(s): it's the chosen solution which allows a third party to do whatever it pleases without any checks and balances. The private parking industry is demonstrably incapable of self regulation and needs to put its house in order. Unfortunately the government, having been taken for a ride when clamping was outlawed and allowed the original proposals in the PoFA Bill to be watered down, is not inclined to do much about it now. The first step would be a statutory appeals system like London Tribunals/TPT. The current system is fatally flawed. For example The IPC/IAS is a sick joke and everyone with an ounce of knowledge knows it.
Given you have taken your ball away in a huff though I don't expect a response.
Not per se. However it depends on what they are and how they are applied.
Yes, for the reasons I have already given. Many PPCs are notorious for their creativity. Plus an uncompromising approach where no revenue can be foregone under any circumstances whatsoever.
Where it is a rapacious third party driven by no other considerations, yes.
In principle, yes, but I can see the difficulties attached to it. Given that many Trusts can't even balance their budgets for their primary purpose it's not an attractive option.
The Surveyor said:
Personally, there are far to many ignorant lazy 'entitled' people to allow any parking to be softly managed. Once people know they can get away with parking where they like on other peoples property for free, they will just cause utter chaos.
Generalisations such as this are not helpful in the context of this thread. I wouldn't describe any of the NHS staff I have encountered as lazy or 'entitled'. Perhaps your experience is different.But since you have broadened the scope, I have never suggested that people should face no sanctions. My issue is, and remains, the shoddy practices of the PPC industry. As long as this continues and it refuses to put its house in order then I will treat it with the contempt it deserves. The government has a role in this but its response to date has been pathetically feeble. Some might wonder if the fact that the country's biggest PPC is now owned by a company which rakes in £millions from government contracts is an additional inhibiting factor. The executive managers of any NHS Trusts also have a responsibility for reining in unscrupulous PPCs because the car parks are part of their estate. Abdication and washing of hands is a precedent which was set over two thousand years ago.
Red Devil said:
Generalisations such as this are not helpful in the context of this thread. I wouldn't describe any of the NHS staff I have encountered as lazy or 'entitled'. Perhaps your experience is different.
But since you have broadened the scope, I have never suggested that people should face no sanctions. My issue is, and remains, the shoddy practices of the PPC industry. As long as this continues and it refuses to put its house in order then I will treat it with the contempt it deserves. The government has a role in this but its response to date has been pathetically feeble. Some might wonder if the fact that the country's biggest PPC is now owned by a company which rakes in £millions from government contracts is an additional inhibiting factor. The executive managers of any NHS Trusts also have a responsibility for reining in unscrupulous PPCs because the car parks are part of their estate. Abdication and washing of hands is a precedent which was set over two thousand years ago.
I didn't say all the NHS staff were lazy or entitled, but it just takes the small percentage I've met, and (for example) the likes of the Consultant mentioned earlier to to mean that a fluffy cuddly management approach isn't always effective. But since you have broadened the scope, I have never suggested that people should face no sanctions. My issue is, and remains, the shoddy practices of the PPC industry. As long as this continues and it refuses to put its house in order then I will treat it with the contempt it deserves. The government has a role in this but its response to date has been pathetically feeble. Some might wonder if the fact that the country's biggest PPC is now owned by a company which rakes in £millions from government contracts is an additional inhibiting factor. The executive managers of any NHS Trusts also have a responsibility for reining in unscrupulous PPCs because the car parks are part of their estate. Abdication and washing of hands is a precedent which was set over two thousand years ago.
If those staff who lived near the hospital walked to work, or cycled, or got the bus, or shared a car rather than expecting their employer to provide them a parking space, then the pressures on the car parks would be reduced. If people park as they should there would be no need for any enforcement. It realy is that simple.
It comes down to personal responsibility. If I'm going somewhere then i would see it as being my responsibility to get there and park properly in good time, not the responsibility of the destination.
The Surveyor said:
I didn't say all the NHS staff were lazy or entitled, but it just takes the small percentage I've met, and (for example) the likes of the Consultant mentioned earlier to to mean that a fluffy cuddly management approach isn't always effective.
I think some people confuse effective management with fluffy cuddly management.Getting a PPC to ticket people is not management of any kind and by the same token not ticketing people is not fluffy and cuddly. In your example of the consultant, he should have been dealt with but not by a PPC. His boss should have actually dealt with him. I suspect a lot of the reason for employing a PPC is either a desire to avoid confrontation or a lack of interest in actually managing your people. I wonder how much actual line management goes on in the NHS, given that through political meddling it has been in an almost constant state or reorganisation for years.
The Surveyor said:
If those staff who lived near the hospital walked to work, or cycled, or got the bus, or shared a car rather than expecting their employer to provide them a parking space, then the pressures on the car parks would be reduced. If people park as they should there would be no need for any enforcement. It realy is that simple.
I guess it depends on the employers expectations. I've seen rather a lot of the employer expecting flexibility to be a one way street. Does the NHS take part in the cycle to work scheme? Do they understand if people have to leave to catch a bus? Do they expect you to work late at short notice. Public transport, walking or cycling to work is great but I can see how it might not be ideal if you are expected to work long anti social hours. The Surveyor said:
It comes down to personal responsibility. If I'm going somewhere then i would see it as being my responsibility to get there and park properly in good time, not the responsibility of the destination.
I don't agree. If a visitor attraction wants people to visit they need to ensure that there is adequate access. Town centres have died primarily because they are not convenient enough. With an employer it should also be a two way street.
Edited by Devil2575 on Saturday 8th October 12:44
The Surveyor said:
If those staff who lived near the hospital walked to work, or cycled, or got the bus, or shared a car rather than expecting their employer to provide them a parking space, then the pressures on the car parks would be reduced.
Ah yes, the mythical people who have alternatives but don't use them - they're the ones who cause all the problems and spoil things for the rest of us.That'll be them, then
The reality is usually quite different.
Devil2575 said:
The Surveyor said:
I didn't say all the NHS staff were lazy or entitled, but it just takes the small percentage I've met, and (for example) the likes of the Consultant mentioned earlier to to mean that a fluffy cuddly management approach isn't always effective.
I think some people confuse effective management with fluffy cuddly management.Getting a PPC to ticket people is not management of any kind and by the same token not ticketing people is not fluffy and cuddly. In your example of the consultant, he should have been dealt with but not by a PPC. His boss should have actually dealt with him. I suspect a lot of the reason for employing a PPC is either a desire to avoid confrontation or a lack of interest in actually managing your people. I wonder how much actual line management goes on in the NHS, given that through political meddling it has been in an almost constant state or reorganisation for years.
The Surveyor said:
If those staff who lived near the hospital walked to work, or cycled, or got the bus, or shared a car rather than expecting their employer to provide them a parking space, then the pressures on the car parks would be reduced. If people park as they should there would be no need for any enforcement. It realy is that simple.
I guess it depends on the employers expectations. I've seen rather a lot of the employer expecting flexibility to be a one way street. Does the NHS take part in the cycle to work scheme? Do they understand if people have to leave to catch a bus? Do they expect you to work late at short notice. Public transport, walking or cycling to work is great but I can see how it might not be ideal if you are expected to work long anti social hours. The Surveyor said:
It comes down to personal responsibility. If I'm going somewhere then i would see it as being my responsibility to get there and park properly in good time, not the responsibility of the destination.
I don't agree. If a visitor attraction wants people to visit they need to ensure that there is adequate access. Town centres have died primarily because they are not convenient enough. With an employer it should also be a two way street.
It's not Alton Towers. Most visitors are not there from choice but because they have a need. It's an essential service which would cease to function if parking becomes the straw which breaks the camel's back and enough staff become totally disaffected and leave. As it is the NHS has a recruitment problem and relies on agency workers which puts a huge strain on budgets.Riley Blue said:
Greenish said:
It causes a great deal of stress though for those that get hounded for penalties that are apparently not even legal.
I was under the impression that there was a change in legislation a year or two back so that these penalities, and those in retail parks and supermarket car parks are now enforceable. Am I wrong?Some matey chops was taken to court, lost, appealed and lost that as well.
So, yes, they are now 'enforceable' and given the case above, the chances that they will win may be significantly higher than people might think.
One thing is for certain, don't ignore them.
Red Devil said:
Whilst I agree with much of what you have said, I'm not sure I would describe a hospital as a visitor attraction wanting people to visit! It's not Alton Towers. Most visitors are not there from choice but because they have a need. It's an essential service which would cease to function if parking becomes the straw which breaks the camel's back and enough staff become totally disaffected and leave. As it is the NHS has a recruitment problem and relies on agency workers which puts a huge strain on budgets.
Sorry, I wasn't saying a Hospital was a tourist attraction, I was simply saying that it is not just down to the driver to make sure they can park in many cases. It's not Alton Towers. Most visitors are not there from choice but because they have a need. It's an essential service which would cease to function if parking becomes the straw which breaks the camel's back and enough staff become totally disaffected and leave. As it is the NHS has a recruitment problem and relies on agency workers which puts a huge strain on budgets.I agree hospital visitors are a captive audience.
Yes, in times of a recruitment crisis bringing in PPCs for staff parking is nonsensical. All it does is make it a less attractive place to work.
Countdown said:
Ken Figenus said:
Local government civil service staff, university staff and the Town Hall council staff all get free city centre parking in my town. But no, nurses who work shifts are not worthy. Think only in commercial terms - milk them for everything you can and increase their hours!
They each have their own parking facilities. It's like complaining about my Ford Focus because my neighbour's got a 911.Have to say I'm very surprised that Council staff in your town are getting free parking unless there is very little demand for it.
Red Devil said:
Devil2575 said:
The Surveyor said:
I didn't say all the NHS staff were lazy or entitled, but it just takes the small percentage I've met, and (for example) the likes of the Consultant mentioned earlier to to mean that a fluffy cuddly management approach isn't always effective.
I think some people confuse effective management with fluffy cuddly management.Getting a PPC to ticket people is not management of any kind and by the same token not ticketing people is not fluffy and cuddly. In your example of the consultant, he should have been dealt with but not by a PPC. His boss should have actually dealt with him. I suspect a lot of the reason for employing a PPC is either a desire to avoid confrontation or a lack of interest in actually managing your people. I wonder how much actual line management goes on in the NHS, given that through political meddling it has been in an almost constant state or reorganisation for years.
The Surveyor said:
If those staff who lived near the hospital walked to work, or cycled, or got the bus, or shared a car rather than expecting their employer to provide them a parking space, then the pressures on the car parks would be reduced. If people park as they should there would be no need for any enforcement. It realy is that simple.
I guess it depends on the employers expectations. I've seen rather a lot of the employer expecting flexibility to be a one way street. Does the NHS take part in the cycle to work scheme? Do they understand if people have to leave to catch a bus? Do they expect you to work late at short notice. Public transport, walking or cycling to work is great but I can see how it might not be ideal if you are expected to work long anti social hours. The Surveyor said:
It comes down to personal responsibility. If I'm going somewhere then i would see it as being my responsibility to get there and park properly in good time, not the responsibility of the destination.
I don't agree. If a visitor attraction wants people to visit they need to ensure that there is adequate access. Town centres have died primarily because they are not convenient enough. With an employer it should also be a two way street.
It's not Alton Towers. Most visitors are not there from choice but because they have a need. It's an essential service which would cease to function if parking becomes the straw which breaks the camel's back and enough staff become totally disaffected and leave. As it is the NHS has a recruitment problem and relies on agency workers which puts a huge strain on budgets.The NHS has much bigger problems than ensuring everybody has somewhere to park IMHO
The Surveyor said:
It is just not possible to provide 'enough' hospital parking, even if the local planners and their green-agenda permitted it. If you were to provide a free parking space for every nurse, you would have to provide a free space for every cleaner and member of the catering team, you would then need to provide at lease 2 spaces for every potential patient because they may get a couple of visitors at every visiting time, then spaces for the maintenance team, and the team of decorators who are paining the corridors... and it goes on. Newcastle Hospitals NHS Trust (for example) employs 13,000 people!
You seem fixated about the numbers. That's not what I have an issue with. For the umpteenth time it's about NHS Trusts getting into bed with a very unsavoury industry with little or no oversight of their inflexible predatory MO. They have an actual and moral responsibility to do so as it's their choice to outsource to these modern day Richard Turpins. When the industry cleans up its act (or has it done for them by the government) then I'll fold my tent.The Surveyor said:
The NHS has much bigger problems than ensuring everybody has somewhere to park IMHO
Quite, but the reasons for that are for another day and a different thread. mph999 said:
Riley Blue said:
Greenish said:
It causes a great deal of stress though for those that get hounded for penalties that are apparently not even legal.
I was under the impression that there was a change in legislation a year or two back so that these penalities, and those in retail parks and supermarket car parks are now enforceable. Am I wrong?Some matey chops was taken to court, lost, appealed and lost that as well.
So, yes, they are now 'enforceable' and given the case above, the chances that they will win may be significantly higher than people might think.
mph999 said:
One thing is for certain, don't ignore them.
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