Yellow Box Junction Cameras
Discussion
bad company said:
Ken Figenus won't agree. See his post above.
I certainly wont as I too am very clever enough to know how they work and never had any issues before, but someone blasting past you nearside from a bus lane that was active... The video didn't show this as the undertake after the green was quite out of frame. Its a terrible layout and its quite famous for raking it in like many London box junctions. But I'm sure it was my utter maverick non-conformist incompetence to blame!C70R said:
It's fairly transparent and straightforward.
Well, it's not always. Several were changed due to complaints of the design especially since buses and larger vehicles were finding it almost impossible to cross. There was an example in Croydon iirc where you almost always fell foul as there were a set of traffic lights installed across from the junction but you couldn't see the lights until you had started to cross said junction; if the lights were red....well, you know.
A well known one which for years has been catching people out near the Old Kent Road has recently been changed (after earning a fortune) due to the design and traffic flows etc.
There's also another set (unless changed) not far from Hackney that has two sets close together making it like automotive chess as to whether you will make it due to other traffic merging etc. I was also told that an HGV doesn't quite fit between the gap of both (will search for more info)
I myself often have three options at several box junctions..
1) Block them
2) Get out of my vehicle and start to explain to other drivers that I need over 30 feet of space on the other side to cross (I never get such a gap and regularly watch a dozen or more tarffic light cycles before I dare even inch forward)
3) Sit there for several hours and wait for the rush hour to finish
Here's another I have had to block during busy periods. Either that, or I have to leave my vehicle and explain to other drivers what I need them to do.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1392251,0.261366...
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1392251,0.261366...
Ken Figenus said:
I certainly wont as I too am very clever enough to know how they work and never had any issues before, but someone blasting past you nearside from a bus lane that was active... The video didn't show this as the undertake after the green was quite out of frame. Its a terrible layout and its quite famous for raking it in like many London box junctions. But I'm sure it was my utter maverick non-conformist incompetence to blame!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but perhaps you should have challenged the fine based on what you say. I had a success at the tribunal earlier this year although it was not yellow box related. The tribunal is not intimidating and all seemed very fair IMO.I did have a go but stood no chance as I got undertaken in the bit between the traffic lights and entering the box and it shows me clearly behind a car that nailed it and undertook from the left. That wasn't expected as he wasn't alongside on the red - well it was a bus lane then after all (not now). He then cuts right and and into my anticipated space the other side of the junction. Country boy 0 - Laandan geezer 1 . He just knew the bus lane was ahead and so had to get in my lane to avoid a ticket!
I'm over it now - honest (but am still going to the counselling as I really like the therapist
) 
I'm over it now - honest (but am still going to the counselling as I really like the therapist
) Red Devil said:
Ken Figenus said:
Zod said:
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-...
Simple in theory, but when you advance into clear space after the exit, only to have some
in a white van speed across the junction from the adjacent lane and push in, leaving you stranded in the box, it doesn't seem so simple.
OMG - same happened to me in Islington (Essex Rd exit), except it was a Ford Puma. They'd have NONE of it though and it cost me £100. It undertook me from the bus lane FFS and took the space I was going to take!Simple in theory, but when you advance into clear space after the exit, only to have some
in a white van speed across the junction from the adjacent lane and push in, leaving you stranded in the box, it doesn't seem so simple.The prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
The crucial bit is in bold. If your exit is clear at your point of entry and someone else unexpectedly nicks that space such that there is no alternative path for you to take then the offence is not made out. See PATAS (now London Tribunals) Essoo -v- L.B. of Enfield (2130232767). The appellant lost but applied for a review which overturned the original adjudicator's decision. The details can be found by a search of the Statutory Register here - https://londontribunals.org.uk/ - (enter the case number without the brackets).
If your circumstances exactly match this then you should go to adjudication quoting the above ruling. Force the LA to produce all the camera footage rather than merely a still image of the end result. One of two things will happen. It won't be able to or you will be proved right.
But there is a caveat - if the incident has been captured on video footage, then the tribunals will look at the point of entry and judge on the simple question "was the exit clear when the vehicle entered the box junction?"
I've had about a dozen or so of these overturned on those grounds.
The problem lies where only still images are captured, and the entire scenario can not be played out. If there is no proof the exit was clear, then the tribunal will uphold the penalty.
pinchmeimdreamin said:
Vipers said:
pinchmeimdreamin said:
What are the rules about Yellow boxes ?
You have to ask?
But then again I see you live in Nottingham, must have box junctions there surely?
Digby said:
C70R said:
It's fairly transparent and straightforward.
Well, it's not always. Several were changed due to complaints of the design especially since buses and larger vehicles were finding it almost impossible to cross. There was an example in Croydon iirc where you almost always fell foul as there were a set of traffic lights installed across from the junction but you couldn't see the lights until you had started to cross said junction; if the lights were red....well, you know.
A well known one which for years has been catching people out near the Old Kent Road has recently been changed (after earning a fortune) due to the design and traffic flows etc.
There's also another set (unless changed) not far from Hackney that has two sets close together making it like automotive chess as to whether you will make it due to other traffic merging etc. I was also told that an HGV doesn't quite fit between the gap of both (will search for more info)
I myself often have three options at several box junctions..
1) Block them
2) Get out of my vehicle and start to explain to other drivers that I need over 30 feet of space on the other side to cross (I never get such a gap and regularly watch a dozen or more tarffic light cycles before I dare even inch forward)
3) Sit there for several hours and wait for the rush hour to finish
If so, you have my sympathies, but that's not really relevant to the OP's post, nor the majority of PH.
I'd be keen to hear/see some examples of these "impossible" Yellow Boxes. I can't think of a single time in 20 years of driving where I've found it "impossible" to traverse a box junction.
If you're patient and assertive, a gap will eventually present itself.
Vipers said:
If you live in the counry perhaps you have never come across them. A Programme last week on TV, someone got done for parking in an Urban Clearway area, he and others said they had no idea what the signs meant, well only to check the HC. Fortunately he got away with it, because where the signs were errected didnt meet the legal requirement to be there.
But then again I see you live in Nottingham, must have box junctions there surely?
We have them, But I have never had an issue using them.But then again I see you live in Nottingham, must have box junctions there surely?
We have one box junction in Aberdeen, when your at the lights waiting to turn right, (one way system) as you pass the white line at the lights you enter a box, you cannot see the end of it as the road bends, so far no one has been caught on this. but bad planning, and at the end of the box there are pedestrian controlled lights, so you could have one car waiting at those lights and you end up on the box.
Generally I find most have no idea how box junctions work.
Generally I find most have no idea how box junctions work.
Vipers said:
at the end of the box there are pedestrian controlled lights, so you could have one car waiting at those lights and you end up on the box.
Exactly the same in above image - you need to seriously plan ahead, and even then can get caught out if the lights ahead of you change as you travel forward. I just do what it says on the tin now and don't enter the box until i categorically know i get out. Can lead to conflict with other cars that think you are being hesitant or have maybe died at the wheel (!) and one can get stranded just before the box junction causing chaos after the lights change... But at least my wallet is intact! To be fair familiarity with even terrible junctions can avoid a fine and most box junctions are decent and serve a purpose (bet you wont find any cameras there...) - but a tiny minority are ill-conmsidered and designed to stress out and cash in.
The cameras will be coming to Edinburgh soon...have ABSOLUTELY no doubt about it. They have just arrived in Cardiff but are being used properly for perfectly fair enforcement (so far).
C70R said:
I assume you're talking about driving an HGV of some sort?
If so, you have my sympathies, but that's not really relevant to the OP's post, nor the majority of PH.
I'd be keen to hear/see some examples of these "impossible" Yellow Boxes. I can't think of a single time in 20 years of driving where I've found it "impossible" to traverse a box junction.
If you're patient and assertive, a gap will eventually present itself.
I have already mentioned one in my first post on page 1. It is the UK's most notorious YBJ. I doubt you have ever been there. I have: many times. Thankfully I no longer have any need to. As for patient and assertive, having to sit through multiple phases of those lights before being able to legally move through the junction because the LA cannot (or more likely will not because it does not want to sacrifice the income stream) sort out the underlying issue does nothing for traffic management.If so, you have my sympathies, but that's not really relevant to the OP's post, nor the majority of PH.
I'd be keen to hear/see some examples of these "impossible" Yellow Boxes. I can't think of a single time in 20 years of driving where I've found it "impossible" to traverse a box junction.
If you're patient and assertive, a gap will eventually present itself.
It's no fun being on the receiving end of the ensuing road rage. On one occasion I was a passenger with a friend of mine who was verbally abused then assaulted. Unfortunately, because I didn't have a mobile phone with video capability it was not possible to gather evidence which could have been given to the police.
Ken Figenus said:
Ouch! Is the software not programmed to resist a red at the pedestrian crossing when there is a linked green on the other side? That's what they could do to help ease these 'gotcha' moments - where there the will!.
A few yards past those pedestrian lights are more lights. All designed by morons.Its a shame that those chancing a penalty don't see it like decent tribunals do and so avoid us all this grief and hassle before it even gets started. Je suis Anne-Marie Springer below (but with less time):
Case Reference: 2120496332
Appellant: Ms Anne-Marie Springer
Authority: Transport for London
VRM: P273NVU
PCN: GT34250254
Contravention Date: 19 Jul 2012
Contravention Time: 08:37
Contravention Location: Upper St / Islington Green
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Decision Date: 23 Oct 2012
Adjudicator: Christopher Rayner
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: 1) Mr. Singer appeared before the Tribunal to present this appeal on behalf of his sister. He had been the driver of the car at the time of the alleged contravention and had his sister's authority to act.
2) Transport for London (TfL) provides CCTV footage showing Mr. Singer driving his sister's car, P273NVU, and entering a yellow box junction at the intersection of Upper Street and Islington Green at 08:37 on 19 July 2012. Due to the flow of the traffic Mr. Singer was obliged to stop in the box for something over twenty seconds. TfL served a postal penalty charge notice (PCN) on Ms. Singer, the car owner.
3) Mr. Singer appealed against the PCN. He explained that there was a complicated series of traffic lights and bus lanes at the junction, such that only three motorists at a time could get through the traffic light in Upper Street before meeting another red light in Islington Green and having to stop, with any subsequent vehicle having to stop in the yellow box.
4) I was prepared to accept Mr. Singer's analysis of the timing and nature of the junction. However, that would not of itself affected his liability if he had committed a contravention, as motorists must drive within the requirements of the traffic arrangements, even if that is inconvenient.
5) The contravention however is set out in paragraph 7(1) to schedule 19 to The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, which states, "... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."
6) With the statutory definition in mind I reviewed the CCTV footage carefully. I attempt to consider the situation as it appeared to the drivers at the time of the incident, rather than with the benefit of hindsight in a Tribunal room. It appeared to me that the car immediately in font of Mr. Singer pulled over from behind the bus and into the lane in which Mr. Singer could reasonably have anticipated at the time he entered the junction that there was a space into which he could pull on exiting to the yellow box. However, as a result of the car in his inside lane taking that space Mr. Singer was obliged to stop in the junction. On balance, I would find that when Mr. Singer entered the box junction his exit had been clear, but was blocked by the white car moving into his lane. That means that he had to stop not because of stationary traffic but because of a moving car taking what he may reasonably have regarded to have been a space to pull into when he entered the box. I therefore find that he did not commit a contravention and allow this appeal.
Case Reference: 2120496332
Appellant: Ms Anne-Marie Springer
Authority: Transport for London
VRM: P273NVU
PCN: GT34250254
Contravention Date: 19 Jul 2012
Contravention Time: 08:37
Contravention Location: Upper St / Islington Green
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Decision Date: 23 Oct 2012
Adjudicator: Christopher Rayner
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: 1) Mr. Singer appeared before the Tribunal to present this appeal on behalf of his sister. He had been the driver of the car at the time of the alleged contravention and had his sister's authority to act.
2) Transport for London (TfL) provides CCTV footage showing Mr. Singer driving his sister's car, P273NVU, and entering a yellow box junction at the intersection of Upper Street and Islington Green at 08:37 on 19 July 2012. Due to the flow of the traffic Mr. Singer was obliged to stop in the box for something over twenty seconds. TfL served a postal penalty charge notice (PCN) on Ms. Singer, the car owner.
3) Mr. Singer appealed against the PCN. He explained that there was a complicated series of traffic lights and bus lanes at the junction, such that only three motorists at a time could get through the traffic light in Upper Street before meeting another red light in Islington Green and having to stop, with any subsequent vehicle having to stop in the yellow box.
4) I was prepared to accept Mr. Singer's analysis of the timing and nature of the junction. However, that would not of itself affected his liability if he had committed a contravention, as motorists must drive within the requirements of the traffic arrangements, even if that is inconvenient.
5) The contravention however is set out in paragraph 7(1) to schedule 19 to The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, which states, "... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."
6) With the statutory definition in mind I reviewed the CCTV footage carefully. I attempt to consider the situation as it appeared to the drivers at the time of the incident, rather than with the benefit of hindsight in a Tribunal room. It appeared to me that the car immediately in font of Mr. Singer pulled over from behind the bus and into the lane in which Mr. Singer could reasonably have anticipated at the time he entered the junction that there was a space into which he could pull on exiting to the yellow box. However, as a result of the car in his inside lane taking that space Mr. Singer was obliged to stop in the junction. On balance, I would find that when Mr. Singer entered the box junction his exit had been clear, but was blocked by the white car moving into his lane. That means that he had to stop not because of stationary traffic but because of a moving car taking what he may reasonably have regarded to have been a space to pull into when he entered the box. I therefore find that he did not commit a contravention and allow this appeal.
Edited by Ken Figenus on Tuesday 4th October 18:33
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