Yellow Box Junction Cameras

[Ken Figenus]

There is an big issue with some junctions and I personally, as a motoring enthusiast, side with the motorists having done some basic research - odd as that sounds. Many agree:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-38...

"London council raises £12m in fines from a single yellow box junction in seven years - but experts say it's not drivers who are at fault. The box junction on Bagley's Lane, Fulham, raked in £2.4m in fines in the last 18 months and £12m since 2010
The Institute of Highways Engineers said traffic flow is the issue. It says fines don't show a lack of understanding of the rules. Box junction at Homerton High Street, Hackney, is the second biggest earner, raising £1.2million in fines
Berkeley Street junction in Piccadilly is third with £816,000 worth of PCNs!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-374744...

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-counc...

Maybe, just maybe, its not the whiny incompetent motorists always at fault?

[Terminator X]

C70R said:

Bad road design is a thing, you know. People occasionally get things wrong, and absolutely nobody is perfect. If you're so angry about a specific execution, write to your local MP.

£2.7m in fines at a single box junction in a single year, certainly less than perfect.

TX.

[herewego]

Vipers said:

Ken Figenus said:

Ouch! Is the software not programmed to resist a red at the pedestrian crossing when there is a linked green on the other side? That's what they could do to help ease these 'gotcha' moments - where there the will!.

A few yards past those pedestrian lights are more lights. All designed by morons.

Presumably the good people of Aberdeen can be trusted to understand that they should do their best to keep the box clear, therefore it works without enforcement, whereas in other locations people are not so considerate.

[C70R]

Terminator X said:

C70R said:

Bad road design is a thing, you know. People occasionally get things wrong, and absolutely nobody is perfect. If you're so angry about a specific execution, write to your local MP.

£2.7m in fines at a single box junction in a single year, certainly less than perfect.

TX.

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm happy to acknowledge the odd failure - I can't think of many design processes that are 100% perfect. If a specific box is adversely affecting you, surely moaning on PH is the least effective way of addressing the issue.

I'm just not convinced that this is in some way deliberately punitive, or that it's a nationwide epidemic.

[Ken Figenus]

No one says epidemic, but where mistakes are made or people are being treated unjustly harshly the least they can do is fix it - 7 years and going below:

http://www.londonnewsonline.co.uk/7479/call-action...

A BBC investigation named the notorious Bagleys Lane/New King’s Road junction in Fulham as London’s most lucrative location for penalty charges.

Hammersmith and Fulham council has raked in £12 million in fines at the junction over the last seven years – with more than £2 million in 2016 alone.

[Vipers]

Ken Figenus said:

No one says epidemic, but where mistakes are made or people are being treated unjustly harshly the least they can do is fix it - 7 years and going below:

http://www.londonnewsonline.co.uk/7479/call-action...

A BBC investigation named the notorious Bagleys Lane/New King’s Road junction in Fulham as London’s most lucrative location for penalty charges.

Hammersmith and Fulham council has raked in £12 million in fines at the junction over the last seven years – with more than £2 million in 2016 alone.

It says 7 million use that junction yearly with no problem, whilst some law abiding motorists are being hit. Hows that work then, how can a law abiding driver be hit if he is law abiding, 7 million manage it.

I think basically a lot of drivers dont fully understand box junctions, and some who do take a chance.

If boxs were not there, roads would just be gridlocked.

[Ken Figenus]

Final point as this simple point is a bit like flogging a dead horse "Experts at the Institute of Highways Engineers said drivers are suffering at the hands of poorly-placed box junctions". I'll go with them!

[Terminator X]

C70R said:

Terminator X said:

C70R said:

Bad road design is a thing, you know. People occasionally get things wrong, and absolutely nobody is perfect. If you're so angry about a specific execution, write to your local MP.

£2.7m in fines at a single box junction in a single year, certainly less than perfect.

TX.

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm happy to acknowledge the odd failure - I can't think of many design processes that are 100% perfect. If a specific box is adversely affecting you, surely moaning on PH is the least effective way of addressing the issue.

I'm just not convinced that this is in some way deliberately punitive, or that it's a nationwide epidemic.

Do you think that if I write to them and point it out they will (a) spend money to amend the junction (b) be pleased to lose £2.7m per year?

TX.

[bad company]

C70R said:

And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.

Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.

So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

[Digby]

C70R said:

As anyone with any common sense would do...

A phrase used many, many times when directed at those who design some of these junctions.

As for avoiding areas at peak times, how does that work for buses and cars without trailers or caravans who regularly get fined? Change jobs and work from home?

You also suggest 'peak times' as though traffic suddenly vanishes after a specific period. I regularly travel in to London and can meet the same congested situations at 7.00 am, 11.00am, 2.00pm...

Only on PH would you find someone suggesting you don't go out due to poor road design!

[Digby]

This is the ridiculous setup on Hommerton High Street. One box for the fire station and another shortly after. Your average large vehicle cannot fit between the two boxes without getting fined, so you find yourself yet again having to wait for what equates to probably twelve to fifteen car spaces to be able to clear the entire setup and come out the other side without a fine.

Try doing that when people are emerging from side roads! Any vehicle can struggle here, buses included, but hey, the money just keeps on rolling in..

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5482785,-0.04412...

[Red Devil]

Number two on the highest grossing YBJ hit list - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-374744...

[herewego]

bad company said:

C70R said:

And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.

Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.

So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

She did the right thing at the end, she took a different route. Isn't that what we all do everyday, work out the best route in our heads.

[Vipers]

herewego said:

Vipers said:

Ken Figenus said:

Ouch! Is the software not programmed to resist a red at the pedestrian crossing when there is a linked green on the other side? That's what they could do to help ease these 'gotcha' moments - where there the will!.

A few yards past those pedestrian lights are more lights. All designed by morons.

Presumably the good people of Aberdeen can be trusted to understand that they should do their best to keep the box clear, therefore it works without enforcement, whereas in other locations people are not so considerate.

They know sod all. Some years at the lights with a box junction, I was going straight over, across the road coming my way was a car stopped at the lights indicating right.

As the lights changed I moved off, the other car started to turn, I hit the horn, came to a stop and said "What are you doing", I have the right of way" he shouted "I have the right of way", so I said "How come, I am oncoming traffic", to which he said "I got on the box first".......

God give me strength.

[Ken Figenus]

OMG that video. Lets hear the pooh-poohers/apathetic/sanctimonious/'doesn't affect me' types again... Especially as no 'raking it in', misery causing councils who share a £12 per ticket profit with big business would even appear or comment to defend their position.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

[Digby]

Ken Figenus said:

OMG that video. Lets hear the pooh-poohers/apathetic/sanctimonious/'doesn't affect me' types again... Especially as no 'raking it in', misery causing councils who share a £12 per ticket profit with big business would even appear or comment to defend their position.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

It's ok though, because 7 million cars cross it without getting a ticket (no mention of how many are at midnight etc).

A bit like saying "Yes, we should warn drivers that the bridge is out ahead, but most manage to turn round and not fall in to the canal"

[bad company]

herewego said:

bad company said:

C70R said:

And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.

Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.

So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

She did the right thing at the end, she took a different route. Isn't that what we all do everyday, work out the best route in our heads.

She was forced to take the wrong road for her. Are you seriously saying that's OK?

[herewego]

bad company said:

herewego said:

bad company said:

C70R said:

And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.

Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.

So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

She did the right thing at the end, she took a different route. Isn't that what we all do everyday, work out the best route in our heads.

She was forced to take the wrong road for her. Are you seriously saying that's OK?

Yes of course, why not? I'm sure there are plenty of other routes she could take. Surely you've taken different routes to your destination based on time of day congestion?

[Pete317]

herewego said:

bad company said:

herewego said:

bad company said:

C70R said:

And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.

Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.

So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...

She did the right thing at the end, she took a different route. Isn't that what we all do everyday, work out the best route in our heads.

She was forced to take the wrong road for her. Are you seriously saying that's OK?

Yes of course, why not? I'm sure there are plenty of other routes she could take. Surely you've taken different routes to your destination based on time of day congestion?

Not if it means going miles out of your way, getting yourself lost, or heading into even greater congestion

Edited by Pete317 on Thursday 6th October 12:40

[speedking31]

IMO the yellow box was obviously implemented to enable people to turn right from the side road, else the main road traffic would always be queuing and they would never get out.

Therefore it should only be enforced for traffic passing along the main road, but not for vehicles emerging from the side street. Otherwise if she can't turn left then she holds up people behind who want to turn right for whom the system was established in the first place.

If they didn't enforce for left turning emergers then the whole thing would flow better and work as planned.

Perhaps a different colour box that only applies to vehicles on the main road