Yellow Box Junction Cameras
Discussion
Pete317 said:
herewego said:
bad company said:
herewego said:
bad company said:
C70R said:
And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.
Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.
So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.
Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...
Edited by Pete317 on Thursday 6th October 12:40
Terminator X said:
C70R said:
Terminator X said:
C70R said:
Bad road design is a thing, you know. People occasionally get things wrong, and absolutely nobody is perfect. If you're so angry about a specific execution, write to your local MP.
£2.7m in fines at a single box junction in a single year, certainly less than perfect.TX.
I'm just not convinced that this is in some way deliberately punitive, or that it's a nationwide epidemic.
TX.
Your MP isn't pocketing £2.7m a year from a box junction. In fact, unless you stop jabbering on the internet and write them a letter, they probably aren't even aware of it. It's in his/her interest to act on their constituents' behalf, including addressing things like badly-designed roads.
bad company said:
C70R said:
And I'm saying that 99.99% of box junctions are no problem (I accept that one on the corner), unless you're towing a boat through an urban area at peak time.
Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.
Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.
So take a look at this lady trying to legally cross a box junction in Enfield and tell us what she was doing wrong please:-Patience and assertive driving are all that is required - this is coming from someone who lives and drives in a city full of these things.
Surely if they are such a menace, there should be hundreds of easily-sourced examples where they place the driver in an "impossible" position.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07xrvgd/insi...
If you somehow think this is evidence of "profiteering" or "the war on the motorist", you're in need of help that I can't give you.
Digby said:
C70R said:
As anyone with any common sense would do...
A phrase used many, many times when directed at those who design some of these junctions.As for avoiding areas at peak times, how does that work for buses and cars without trailers or caravans who regularly get fined? Change jobs and work from home?
You also suggest 'peak times' as though traffic suddenly vanishes after a specific period. I regularly travel in to London and can meet the same congested situations at 7.00 am, 11.00am, 2.00pm...
Only on PH would you find someone suggesting you don't go out due to poor road design!
In fact, I'm suggesting that a normal car should have no problem traversing 99.99% of box junctions. In the very rare instance that they prevent progress for a normal car, there's a process for reporting things like this.
I live in London, and have driven all over the city (and others) for almost a decade. I can't ever remember coming across a junction that I thought was "impossible" to use, and I definitely don't consider myself above average as a city driver.
speedking31 said:
IMO the yellow box was obviously implemented to enable people to turn right from the side road, else the main road traffic would always be queuing and they would never get out.
Therefore it should only be enforced for traffic passing along the main road, but not for vehicles emerging from the side street. Otherwise if she can't turn left then she holds up people behind who want to turn right for whom the system was established in the first place.
If they didn't enforce for left turning emergers then the whole thing would flow better and work as planned.
Perhaps a different colour box that only applies to vehicles on the main road
It's not a bad idea, unless you've got two similar sized roads, or you're talking about yellow boxes on roundabouts.Therefore it should only be enforced for traffic passing along the main road, but not for vehicles emerging from the side street. Otherwise if she can't turn left then she holds up people behind who want to turn right for whom the system was established in the first place.
If they didn't enforce for left turning emergers then the whole thing would flow better and work as planned.
Perhaps a different colour box that only applies to vehicles on the main road
Not much (any) enforcement of yellow boxes on my normal journeys - but there's only a couple, mostly on roundabouts, which are completely ignored by (almost) all drivers anyway
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
To answer your question, I have no idea. I don't recall doing anything 'special' at that particular junction whenever I've passed.
C70R said:
This is actually brilliant - you couldn't have illustrated my point better. I've used that exact road quite a few times, and don't ever remember having an issue at that junction/box. In actual fact, it wouldn't have even stuck in my head as being problematic...
To answer your question, I have no idea. I don't recall doing anything 'special' at that particular junction whenever I've passed.
And this is actually brilliant because it's obvious you have passed the junction when traffic isn't an issue or do not use the road where the van is positioned. I have passed this junction too, several hundred times with no issue when using the main road. On many other occasions, you have no choice but to block or at least part block it. To answer your question, I have no idea. I don't recall doing anything 'special' at that particular junction whenever I've passed.
Can you explain what assertive driving means when you need to cross a junction that is, as many often are, gridlocked?
Edited by Digby on Thursday 6th October 18:48
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
herewego said:
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
Vipers said:
herewego said:
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
Alternatively oncoming traffic could see that they need to hold back to allow room for the silver van etc.
Edited by herewego on Thursday 6th October 19:48
tigger1 said:
It's not a bad idea, unless you've got two similar sized roads, or you're talking about yellow boxes on roundabouts.
Not much (any) enforcement of yellow boxes on my normal journeys - but there's only a couple, mostly on roundabouts, which are completely ignored by (almost) all drivers anyway
Then again, if it wasn't for traffic lights on roundabouts, they probably wouldn't need the yellow boxes either - generally speakingNot much (any) enforcement of yellow boxes on my normal journeys - but there's only a couple, mostly on roundabouts, which are completely ignored by (almost) all drivers anyway
herewego said:
Vipers said:
herewego said:
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
Edited by Vipers on Thursday 6th October 19:57
Vipers said:
herewego said:
Vipers said:
herewego said:
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
Vipers said:
Studied it for a time, and still cant figure out the problem. The entire junction is controlled by lights, only suggestion is that the far side should have a box as well. Otherwise the entire lane could be blocked from the lights onwatrds.
When traffic is queued all the way to the A20, a gap rarely appears in time to allow an exit from the vans position.Making the junction the entire width of the road would make no difference under those conditions.
Things get just as 'interesting' by the A20 itself..
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.412491,0.1126133...
It often ends up as a game of 'who goes for the gap first' with little option but to block the junction if you actually want to move in any direction within the foreseeable future.
In my experience, these types of situations seem to flow better when there are no box junctions, so I say bin them both.
herewego said:
Vipers said:
herewego said:
Vipers said:
herewego said:
Digby said:
C70R said:
Another one deciding not to actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Your 99.9% figure is way off by the way. You have so far suggested that all that is required is patience and assertive driving and if that doesn't work, avoid the area; a pretty poor defence for drivers being ripped off if you ask me.Have another often impossible one. I crossed this today and cars exiting where the silver van is positioned can't make it without part blocking the junction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4074216,0.113171...
Given you appear to be an expert on box junctions, what would you do on the fifth or sixth light change with still no chance to move? That's exactly what I witnessed today. Is that where patience kicks in? Wait until all the congestion has gone? (although the queue behind would now stretch for miles and miles causing more) Perhaps you assertively cross? Can you explain what that even means?
Meanwhile, I'll just add this to the ever growing list of ridiculous box junction designs.
Vipers said:
Ive looked at it, studied it, looked at it from the vans perspective, and cant think of any situation whatsoever why the van would end up on the junction,
Vipers said:
assuming the lane at the other side of the junctioon is clear
And there you have it, the problem with many junctions; sometimes, it simply never is. How long do you wait? Is six light change cycles enough? Is it then you block, or do you wait and hope that after ten cycles you may make it?You could be assertive and get across, of course, but it looks like we may never find out what that means.
Digby said:
And there you have it, the problem with many junctions; sometimes, it simply never is. How long do you wait? Is six light change cycles enough? Is it then you block, or do you wait and hope that after ten cycles you may make it?
You could be assertive and get across, of course, but it looks like we may never find out what that means.
I know what my version of that means and its a blaaaadi local knowledge cockerney nailing it to undertake said country bumpkin. I was asserted and left deserted in the box!You could be assertive and get across, of course, but it looks like we may never find out what that means.
Vipers said:
Ive looked at it, studied it, looked at it from the vans perspective, and cant think of any situation whatsoever why the van would end up on the junction, unless he isnt paying attention. Scenario, cross traffice has red light, van has green, assuming the lane at the other side of the junctioon is clear he can pull out and get in the lane, if its blocked, he shouldnt sit on the box, or am I missing something.
No, you're right the van should sit there until there's a gap and his lights are green. I can't see a problem. I imagine before the box was painted the traffic going in the camera direction was setting off with nowhere to go and blocking the van's path. Personally I prefer roundabouts.herewego said:
Vipers said:
Ive looked at it, studied it, looked at it from the vans perspective, and cant think of any situation whatsoever why the van would end up on the junction, unless he isnt paying attention. Scenario, cross traffic has red light, van has green, assuming the lane at the other side of the junction is clear he can pull out and get in the lane, if its blocked, he shouldnt sit on the box, or am I missing something.
No, you're right the van should sit there until there's a gap and his lights are green. I can't see a problem. I imagine before the box was painted the traffic going in the camera direction was setting off with nowhere to go and blocking the van's path. Personally I prefer roundabouts.
Digby said:
C70R said:
This is actually brilliant - you couldn't have illustrated my point better. I've used that exact road quite a few times, and don't ever remember having an issue at that junction/box. In actual fact, it wouldn't have even stuck in my head as being problematic...
To answer your question, I have no idea. I don't recall doing anything 'special' at that particular junction whenever I've passed.
And this is actually brilliant because it's obvious you have passed the junction when traffic isn't an issue or do not use the road where the van is positioned. I have passed this junction too, several hundred times with no issue when using the main road. On many other occasions, you have no choice but to block or at least part block it.To answer your question, I have no idea. I don't recall doing anything 'special' at that particular junction whenever I've passed.
I wonder exactly how many his 'quite a few times' is. I will bet he is not a local who uses it every day. Sevenoaks Way backs up in both directions for lengthy periods. Turning right from Main Road can be a total 'mare. Sitting through multiple phases before being able to exit is a PITA. The upshot is traffic backs up on Main Road as well preventing egress from the Homebase car park. On one occasion I was trapped in there and it took over 20 minutes to get out and clear the lights. Those who use the 51 bus route know how frustrating traversing Sevenoaks Way can be. It's often quicker to walk from Footscray to the Leesons Hill junction/Nugent Retail Park and vice-versa!
If you look at the timeline on Streetview you will find that those lights and box junction are a relatively recent addition to the landscape. They have only been there since mid 2014 when the southbound filter lane to Main Road was created. Another great 'improvement' was the simultaneous massive reduction to the capacity of the northbound right turn lane.
The junction works reasonably well when traffic is flowing but when it is congested and backed up (which it is all too often) it's just the opposite.
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