another parking charge notice query.
Discussion
Not sure on this one.
I am on a customer site in Liverpool on a new business estate (Atlantic Business Park if it matters).
There is a large car park which I parked in.
I came out to my car for a "Parking Charge Notice" stuck on the windscreen.
Inside the note says "parked in a permit area without displaying a valid permit".
My customer contact did not tell me about any permit requirements and while the bays have numbers on them they are not linked in any way I can tell to the office blocks (although I'm sure they are).
I was since told by a member of the business I am doing work for, that "their" bays were numbers X-X, not where I was parked.
What can I do?
I can appeal online and I have drafted the below.. any advice?
"Hello,
I am a Telephone Engineer working for <Company I work for>
I attended a planned site visit to <Customer Name> in Atlantic Business Park in Liverpool who have offices here.
I came out to my vehicle having a penalty charge notice on it saying no permit is present. I was not provided with a permit nor was any signage clearly marked stating permits were needed, neither were they any marked visitor / contractor bays.
You can verify my attendance to site with <Company employee>.
Contact Details Provided."
Edit to say: Charge is from "UKPC".
I am on a customer site in Liverpool on a new business estate (Atlantic Business Park if it matters).
There is a large car park which I parked in.
I came out to my car for a "Parking Charge Notice" stuck on the windscreen.
Inside the note says "parked in a permit area without displaying a valid permit".
My customer contact did not tell me about any permit requirements and while the bays have numbers on them they are not linked in any way I can tell to the office blocks (although I'm sure they are).
I was since told by a member of the business I am doing work for, that "their" bays were numbers X-X, not where I was parked.
What can I do?
I can appeal online and I have drafted the below.. any advice?
"Hello,
I am a Telephone Engineer working for <Company I work for>
I attended a planned site visit to <Customer Name> in Atlantic Business Park in Liverpool who have offices here.
I came out to my vehicle having a penalty charge notice on it saying no permit is present. I was not provided with a permit nor was any signage clearly marked stating permits were needed, neither were they any marked visitor / contractor bays.
You can verify my attendance to site with <Company employee>.
Contact Details Provided."
- ##
Edit to say: Charge is from "UKPC".
Edited by xjay1337 on Tuesday 11th October 15:10
hornetrider said:
The client pays. They should have informed you of the parking arrangements.
If it's not going to be detrimental to the relationship, I'd agree. If you value the client, I'd suck it up yourself.I can't see how you're going to have any recourse here, unless there's a technical loophole you can exploit (signage etc.). Pepipoo is the place to ask about that.
I dropped an IM to my boss.
She agrees I should not have to pay and customer should have alerted me to specific parking requirements if needed. She even said she would deal with the entire thing on my behalf for me!
However, not wanting to be a burdon/little b
h, I sent the above E-mail outlined to UKPC via their online appeal portal. Obviously avoiding any cost would be good if possible but I don't think I would be personally out of pocket if it ends up needing to be paid, but not sure.
UKPC may contact the client and drop it then with confirmation of my presence? As I don't imagine they would be very happy if the bill one of the customers they are supposed to represent.
Although I doubt that will happen.
She agrees I should not have to pay and customer should have alerted me to specific parking requirements if needed. She even said she would deal with the entire thing on my behalf for me!
However, not wanting to be a burdon/little b
h, I sent the above E-mail outlined to UKPC via their online appeal portal. Obviously avoiding any cost would be good if possible but I don't think I would be personally out of pocket if it ends up needing to be paid, but not sure.UKPC may contact the client and drop it then with confirmation of my presence? As I don't imagine they would be very happy if the bill one of the customers they are supposed to represent.
Although I doubt that will happen.
Edited by xjay1337 on Tuesday 11th October 15:43
Reply to them, asking them to send the PCN to the driver.
As you are the registered keeper, it was the drivers responsibility, to park correctly not yours.
Always contact them in the third person, ie, you are not the driver, simply the registered keeper.
Not a lot they can do in the long run, as you do not, and will not be naming the driver.
So post it back, from the registered keepers point of view, and ask them to resend it to "The Driver"
As you are the registered keeper, it was the drivers responsibility, to park correctly not yours.
Always contact them in the third person, ie, you are not the driver, simply the registered keeper.
Not a lot they can do in the long run, as you do not, and will not be naming the driver.
So post it back, from the registered keepers point of view, and ask them to resend it to "The Driver"
Register1 said:
Reply to them, asking them to send the PCN to the driver.
As you are the registered keeper, it was the drivers responsibility, to park correctly not yours.
Always contact them in the third person, ie, you are not the driver, simply the registered keeper.
Not a lot they can do in the long run, as you do not, and will not be naming the driver.
So post it back, from the registered keepers point of view, and ask them to resend it to "The Driver"
Not sure if that would work, but I had already emailed the drafted note above in my OP.As you are the registered keeper, it was the drivers responsibility, to park correctly not yours.
Always contact them in the third person, ie, you are not the driver, simply the registered keeper.
Not a lot they can do in the long run, as you do not, and will not be naming the driver.
So post it back, from the registered keepers point of view, and ask them to resend it to "The Driver"
Don't send the appeal in until 20 days after the ticket, and appeal as registered keeper. UKPC are taking a few people to court, but only where they can positively identify the driver. by sending the appeal in around day 20, they will omit to send a Notice to Keeper. They are suckers for this. No notice to keeper, no keeper liability.
They also do not have correct landowner authority at that site, and the signage is what is known as a "forbidding contract" - same as outlined here - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/ba...
The easiest way to resolve this though is to get the client to have the ticket cancelled. They will have contact with UKPC, and it is up to them to inform their visitors and trades where to park.
Of course, if UKPC actively managed the site they could have told you where to park and mitigate the losses, however that is not in their business interests...
They also do not have correct landowner authority at that site, and the signage is what is known as a "forbidding contract" - same as outlined here - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/ba...
The easiest way to resolve this though is to get the client to have the ticket cancelled. They will have contact with UKPC, and it is up to them to inform their visitors and trades where to park.
Of course, if UKPC actively managed the site they could have told you where to park and mitigate the losses, however that is not in their business interests...
PurpleMoonlight said:
Absolutely. It's always somebody elses fault.
God forbid people should think for thmselves and ask their customwr what the parking arrangements are.
Or just perhaps, maybe, the signs are deliberately misleading and not clear as to what visitors should do?God forbid people should think for thmselves and ask their customwr what the parking arrangements are.
Or perhaps a well managed car park would have an attendant advice people where to park and what they need to do?
Or maybe some toady little adenoidal Norris in a plain white Citroen Nemo van hides at the far end of the car park and masturbates furiously every time he catches some unsuspecting motorist.
Does the fact the notice was stuck to the screen rather than posted to the RK not make all this crap about ducking the issue rather moot? I.e. the person that was driving the car was the one that found the ticket on said car?
If I go to a client site I do always check where I'm supposed to park, if nothing else to avoid ending up in the way of plant or waggon movements.
If I go to a client site I do always check where I'm supposed to park, if nothing else to avoid ending up in the way of plant or waggon movements.
PurpleMoonlight said:
I do indeed. It's private property.
But in reality that would never happen as when visiting a new client I always enquire about parking facilities.
I know the site in question quite well, and in the example of what you would do, I can tell you that you would more than likely still end up with an invoice.But in reality that would never happen as when visiting a new client I always enquire about parking facilities.
Said Norris in Citroen Semen collector, will wait til you park up, and as you walk into reception to ask about parking facilities, he will have already ticked the boxes on his windscreen notice, added your reg, and slapped it on the windscreen by the time you have said thank you to the receptionist for handing you a permit.
"No worries," says the snidy little onanist, "I'll remove the ticket, and that'll be that."
Mr Purple Moonlight carries on with his job, feeling happy he has done the right thing.
Norris the nobber meanwhile chuckles to himself as he knows that in 5 weeks time, the registered keeper of the vehicle will receive a letter asking for £100, coupled with a photograph of a ticket on the windscreen of Mr P Moonlights car. Which may be owned by a leasing company - a lot of company cars are, and this particular site attracts a lot of business users. Norris knows this. Norris cracks out another shifty wristy at the thought of a ticket commission.
The fortunate thing with most leasing companies is that they automatically pay any charges and bill them back to the driver, and once the invoice has been paid, UKPC stick their fingers in the ears going "la la la la la la"....
Meanwhile, the vehicle leasing company, Mr P Moonlight, his employer and his client are all in a Mexican stand off over the situation. Norris is buying another bottle of lube with the commission he earned from that ticket.
UKPC have form for issuing dodgy tickets, lots of them, but as they are one of the bigger subscribers(cash cows) to the British Parking Association, their payments keep the DVLA KADOE contract open for them.
Edited by S11Steve on Tuesday 11th October 17:35
They are still a BPA opeartor IIRC and havent made the switch to the IPC. make sure you receive a POPLA code in your appeal response (sometimes you need to actually request this) and submit a POPLA appeal.
Private Parking companies are scammers (literally) and will decline your appeal regardless as they want your £100.
MSE parking fine forums has all the advice you need. You're not special and submitting standard templates and following the standard processes on the forum there should be enough to see it defeated. You have a time frame in which you can submit an appeal and request a POPLA code.
If you pay it youre a proper twunt.
If you ignore they will likely send you letters with BOLD RED LETTERING that actually sound serious and eventually pass it on to fake debt collection companies who also use big red lettering. Private firms actually have the ability to take you to court for ignoring this stuff and firms like parking Eye do it all the time.
To summarise, wait till your response comes through and make sure it has a POPLA code. If it doesnt go on the forums at MSE parking fine section and request advice. They will probs tell you to complain to the BPA that no POPLA code was received, who should in turn tell the operator to submit a code to you for appeal.
Process is simple really.
Private Parking companies are scammers (literally) and will decline your appeal regardless as they want your £100.
MSE parking fine forums has all the advice you need. You're not special and submitting standard templates and following the standard processes on the forum there should be enough to see it defeated. You have a time frame in which you can submit an appeal and request a POPLA code.
If you pay it youre a proper twunt.
If you ignore they will likely send you letters with BOLD RED LETTERING that actually sound serious and eventually pass it on to fake debt collection companies who also use big red lettering. Private firms actually have the ability to take you to court for ignoring this stuff and firms like parking Eye do it all the time.
To summarise, wait till your response comes through and make sure it has a POPLA code. If it doesnt go on the forums at MSE parking fine section and request advice. They will probs tell you to complain to the BPA that no POPLA code was received, who should in turn tell the operator to submit a code to you for appeal.
Process is simple really.
Tom_C76 said:
Does the fact the notice was stuck to the screen rather than posted to the RK not make all this crap about ducking the issue rather moot? I.e. the person that was driving the car was the one that found the ticket on said car?
The only real difference it makes is in the timings of the Notice to Keeper being sent out in order to invoke Keeper Liability under POFA 2012. The rules for holding the keeper liable are quite strict, and hardly any of the PPC adhere to them.When the ticket is issued, Norris doesn't ask the driver for proof of ID or anything like that, therefore they have to rely on the DVLA providing keeper details, then hoping the keeper is a private individual. There is a lot of legal precedent that acknowledges that a sign on a wall can form a binding contract, but most of the PPC signs do not for various reasons.
S11Steve said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
I do indeed. It's private property.
But in reality that would never happen as when visiting a new client I always enquire about parking facilities.
I know the site in question quite well, and in the example of what you would do, I can tell you that you would more than likely still end up with an invoice.But in reality that would never happen as when visiting a new client I always enquire about parking facilities.
Mr Purple Moonlight carries on with his job, feeling happy he has done the right thing.
UKPC have form for issuing dodgy tickets,
Why aren't you having a go at the land/lease holder who gave them the contract to operate on their land ?
Maybe they employed UKPC to 'manage their land' as they were sick of cocksocks parking all over it ?
S11 thanks for your input btw, if you know the site.
The info previously will maybe be useful.
I went into Alaska House.
They don't even have a receptionist and there are no signs about parking or permits and no sign in book.
There were some virgin media lads on site and one of them told me, at about 3pm today, that the little hut next to the speed bumps is a security building and you need to sign in there.....if only it told you....
The ticket was timed at 10.23 and I must have gotten there at 10.21 as customer called me at 10.05 asking where I was lol and I was 10 to 15 mins away...
Are you aware if UKPC will drop the ticket as I had permission to be there by one of the companies leasing the building?
If not I will argue it on the basis of no clear signs on what to do for visitors.
The info previously will maybe be useful.
I went into Alaska House.
They don't even have a receptionist and there are no signs about parking or permits and no sign in book.
There were some virgin media lads on site and one of them told me, at about 3pm today, that the little hut next to the speed bumps is a security building and you need to sign in there.....if only it told you....
The ticket was timed at 10.23 and I must have gotten there at 10.21 as customer called me at 10.05 asking where I was lol and I was 10 to 15 mins away...
Are you aware if UKPC will drop the ticket as I had permission to be there by one of the companies leasing the building?
If not I will argue it on the basis of no clear signs on what to do for visitors.
Edited by xjay1337 on Tuesday 11th October 21:55
Wait for them to reject your appeal, and get a popla code.
It's an easy win on insufficient signage, and no landowner authority.
The site is, I recall, owned by Royal London investments but managed by Savilles. UKPC contract is with Savilles, not the landowner.
UKPC permit signs have been slated in courts and at POPLA, so ahh of these points will be a win at popla.
I'd still try to get a point of contact at the client to get it cancelled in the first instance, and even if they agree but cast get it cancelled, this can also be used in the POPLA appeal.
Let me know when UKPC reply to you.
It's an easy win on insufficient signage, and no landowner authority.
The site is, I recall, owned by Royal London investments but managed by Savilles. UKPC contract is with Savilles, not the landowner.
UKPC permit signs have been slated in courts and at POPLA, so ahh of these points will be a win at popla.
I'd still try to get a point of contact at the client to get it cancelled in the first instance, and even if they agree but cast get it cancelled, this can also be used in the POPLA appeal.
Let me know when UKPC reply to you.
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