another parking charge notice query.

[Devil2575]

PurpleMoonlight said:

hornetrider said:

The client pays. They should have informed you of the parking arrangements.

Absolutely. It's always somebody elses fault.

God forbid people should think for thmselves and ask their customwr what the parking arrangements are.

Errrr...no.

He was visiting an unfamiliar clients site, he should have been made aware of any special parking arrangements before arriving. If I had someone visiting me I'd make damn sure they knew where they could park.

[Devil2575]

xjay1337 said:

Hi Steve. Thanks for the reply mate.
I'll wait to hear back. I am hoping they will contact my client and confirm abd tbat will be that but sounds like it won't be that simple and will be a long battle.

I'll keep you up dated of course. Many thanks for your help so far, been a star.

Why are you even entering a battle? Ask the client to pay? It's not your fight.

[S11Steve]

Maybe the OP can confirm, but I think he may have been a sub-contractor, and not directly employed by a tenant of the building. Besides, this would mean paying UKPC then charging the tenant/client. It would pain me to pay those sharks, even if I could invoice it on to another party.

The tenants will have a link to UKPC in that they can whitelist vehicles/issue permits etc, but the UKPC contract will be with the site management company, Savilles, rather than any of the tenants or more importantly the landowner.

The tenant requesting a cancellation is still the easiest first line of attack though.

Also, if you were in a company vehicle, give a heads up to your fleet manager or vehicle provider, to ensure that this is not paid by them. UKPC will know which fleet companies pay up without question.

[herewego]

I don't see how it can be the clients responsibility unless they had advised that parking anywhere in the car park would be okay.
Since the OP says there were no clear parking restriction signs I would have thought requesting a POPLA appeal reference on the basis of inadequate signing would be the right response initially.

[MikeGoodwin]

fk me just have it overturned at POPLA itll save you a lot of bother. Trust me. These s will not go away especially now you have actually replied to them.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.p...

there is everything you will need. This is so easy to do I used to bait UKCPM into giving me tickets and had all 20 overturned using that forum advice.

[xjay1337]

Devil2575 said:

Why are you even entering a battle? Ask the client to pay? It's not your fight.

I told my PM.
I said I would not pay, bill the client.
My boss agrees. PM doesn't.
Company policy is to not pay parking charges.
If it was my own fault, I would just suck it up but I don't think it is.

S11Steve said:

Maybe the OP can confirm, but I think he may have been a sub-contractor, and not directly employed by a tenant of the building. Besides, this would mean paying UKPC then charging the tenant/client. It would pain me to pay those sharks, even if I could invoice it on to another party.

The tenants will have a link to UKPC in that they can whitelist vehicles/issue permits etc, but the UKPC contract will be with the site management company, Savilles, rather than any of the tenants or more importantly the landowner.

The tenant requesting a cancellation is still the easiest first line of attack though.

Also, if you were in a company vehicle, give a heads up to your fleet manager or vehicle provider, to ensure that this is not paid by them. UKPC will know which fleet companies pay up without question.

It's my own personal car.
I was on site working for my company who was paid to put in a new PBX.
On my appeal form I explained I was working for company X that was a tenant in the building and provided the contact details for the guy I was working with , who worked for that company.


Anyway let me try to explain from the top.



This is where you first turn in

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4788904,-2.97353...


This is a little further up the road

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4785133,-2.97285...

This is the turning I took

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4782739,-2.97242...

And this is the building

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4778793,-2.97307...


Here's the view from where I was parked (facing forwards in direction of the car being pointed)

from where i parked by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

Here is the sign you can see in the picture

sign forward by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

Here's the sign they photographed with my car in the background.
(the sign is the one you can see the back of, in the other photo)

parking notice sign by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


On the building, as I walked in or anywhere on the front, there were NO signs stating that you needed a permit to park.
The building was, I'm guessing, the last to be completed, as there were lots of empty offices within, and the reception desk was unmanned, there was no sign in book and no instructions for visitor parking.

(I walked to another building on Monday for coffee and there was a receptionist there. I didn't notice any signs).

I parked at around 10:15 and 10:20.

The ticket is timed 10:26

20161012_100549 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr



As mentioned there were some other guys from Virgin Media and one of them told me, that the little booth in the 1st and 2nd photo's was a security booth and you'd sign in there. no signs anywhere to tell you of that.

Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 12th October 10:12

Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 12th October 10:15

[Dr_Rick]

xjay1337 said:

parking notice sign by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


On the building, as I walked in or anywhere on the front, there were NO signs stating that you needed a permit to park.

Except that it clearly says beneath the lower right hand of the four blue graphics that cars 'Must be parked within designated bay with a valid blue parking permit displayed'.

Doesn't get around the fact that the Company you were visiting should indicate which bays are 'theirs'.

[S11Steve]

Dr_Rick said:

xjay1337 said:

parking notice sign by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


On the building, as I walked in or anywhere on the front, there were NO signs stating that you needed a permit to park.

Except that it clearly says beneath the lower right hand of the four blue graphics that cars 'Must be parked within designated bay with a valid blue parking permit displayed'.

Doesn't get around the fact that the Company you were visiting should indicate which bays are 'theirs'.

Good example of a what I believe is known as forbidding contract - only permit holders are bound by the terms, and if you are not authorised to park, you can not also be bound by the terms. Quote "Case B6QZ4H3R" as guidance on this very specific subject, although not legal precedent, it is very persuasive if it ever went to court. Googling the case number will bring up many similar threads and situations. Throw it into a POPLA appeal for a guaranteed win.

Also, the ticket issue time is the same as the observed time, therefore the Notice to Keeper will be non-compliant to enforce keeper liability as it has to show a period of parking, rather than just a specific time.

UKPC don't seem to learn, as these points keep getting used against them but there must be enough schmucks out there paying up to make it worth their while to continue. No wonder they offer their car park "management" services for free to site managers.

[xjay1337]

That's fair enough. But it was not visible clearly, certainly not clear enough to be seen without getting out and walking to the sign) - there were no signs visible from my parked location (as you can see in the picture) and no warnings or notifications on the way in.

:-(

Edited for Steve's post:

Thanks bud. When they reply I will ask for a POPLA code and start a more aggressive appeal tactic and quote that case as well. I may need some feedback on writing letters. I've only had 1 parking ticket before from Southampton Council and that was my own fault (PAD, didn't pay/realise), and £30, so I paid it lol.

Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 12th October 11:04

[Dr_Rick]

xjay1337 said:

That's fair enough. But it was not visible clearly, certainly not clear enough to be seen without getting out and walking to the sign) - there were no signs visible from my parked location (as you can see in the picture) and no warnings or notifications on the way in.

:-(

Edited for Steve's post:

Thanks bud. When they reply I will ask for a POPLA code and start a more aggressive appeal tactic and quote that case as well. I may need some feedback on writing letters. I've only had 1 parking ticket before from Southampton Council and that was my own fault (PAD, didn't pay/realise), and £30, so I paid it lol.

I obviously defer to Steve's knowledge and guidance. But your first comments are a bit off aren't they? The signs must be 'clear enough' as you've linked a photo of them that I can read. As for visible from your parked location / having to get out and walk to the sign, I can't see that as a reason for cancellation as you're suggesting that every bay has a dedicated sign for the T&Cs, which is daft. There's probably standard Guidance for what the sign must contain as a minimum, the format of the sign and appropriate locations for them. Whether the Guidance is national, or Council specific I'm unsure.

However, I think Steve's stuff is going to be the best approach.

[xjay1337]

There are signs, but not many. There were no visible signs from that side of the car park where I was parked, and no immediate signs when you enter the car park or business estate that state there is restricted parking (as you can see on google Maps)

Signs were not readable from over 10ft away and writing was very very small.

There were no visitor bays and no signs (anywhere on the entire car park, as I looked) saying visitors should sign into a security hut or anything like that.

If there were, don't you think I would have done something about it?

I don't expect there to be signs on every space, don't be daft :-) But I would expect reasonable signage to say there is restricted parking, given it is a business site that could expect visitors.

Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 12th October 14:27

[MikeGoodwin]

fk me you really are over thinking this.

[xjay1337]

Back on site...

I went into the security hut and the actually very nice bloke said that UKPC are contracted and actually cannot ticket a car without security's permission. And that they did not have permission!

He showed me paperwork of the site parking , the reason I was ticketed was because I was parked in a bay that was not allocated to a customer office.
Apparently bays are allocated, for example bays 1-15 are for company X, bays 15-21 are for company Y, and so on.

I was parked in bays which were not allocated to anyone and as such I got a ticket.
The security hut guy says lots of people get fined and they nearly all get over turned. He also told me that the signs were not suitable in his opinion and has been at site management to improve signage but has so far been ignored...

Oh well

[speedking31]

So you were penalised because you parked in a space that would cause least disruption to the building's users!

[catso]

xjay1337 said:

parking notice sign by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

I don't know the legality of it but the sign says the parking charge will be issued to the driver, so how do they know who the driver is/was? surely any charge is sent to the registered keeper?

Now I know the RK has to name the driver for certain types of motoring offence such as speeding but is there any obligation to do this for a privately issued charge?

[speedking31]

No. But if the ticket is affixed to the vehicle then the driver has been notified.
Moot anyway because the OP wrote back declaring himself to be the driver

[catso]

speedking31 said:

No. But if the ticket is affixed to the vehicle then the driver has been notified.

Fair enough but if the driver ignores the charge and says nothing to the keeper, what liability does the keeper have?

[Red Devil]

catso said:

Now I know the RK has to name the driver for certain types of motoring offence such as speeding but is there any obligation to do this for a privately issued charge?

None whatsoever. PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 Section 9(e) states 'invite the keeper'. An invitation does not confer any obligation.
Some PPCs may threaten Elliott v Loake (presumption that the RK is the driver) but that is flawed for the reasons set out in post #5 here.
However the PPC can invoke PoFA 2012 RK liability. If it gets its ducks in a row. Quite a few fail utterly to do so.

[stevebroad]

Got a notice from a company running a McDonalds car park in January 2015. I just ignored all letters as they weren't sent recorded delivery. They passed it on to a dept collection agency who sent stronger and stronger letters that threatened that they may take me to court and kept upping the amount I 'owed'. After a few months letters started arriving from a different agency but the same type of threatening letters. Just ignored them all. The last one said that in order to not take me to court they were prepared to reduce the amount I owed from £200 to £77 :-) Ha, got the bds. This arrived last October (2015) and haven't heard anything since.

If it says Parking Charge it is an invoice based on a contract between you and the company. If you weren't aware of the parking restriction then you were not party to the contract and have a strong case in law. They know this so resort to scare tactics, which are pretty successful.

[anonymous-user]

stevebroad said:

Got a notice from a company running a McDonalds car park in January 2015.

How do you spend more than 90 mins in McDonald's on someone else's private land ? (if that's what you did)