Before speed cameras.......
Discussion
Spangles said:
Deaths on the road 1990, 5217, speed cameras introduced 1991, deaths on the road 2015, 1732.
Rover 100 crash test (presume equivalent result for the 1991 Metro)http://youtu.be/aIs1DaxEcfs
Ford Fiesta 2008 model crash test
http://youtu.be/rsz1mB3c4ZU
First nicked in 73 for 42 in a 30 limit ,that got thrown out as the truck was restricted by a governer to 35 .The radar box (remember them ?) was faulty .This was in the days when they clocked an oak tree doing 102 !
Later done by a motorbike cop for 58 in a 40 at 6 30am ,he was very generous as it was much much more than that ! That was in 1984 .
Later done by a motorbike cop for 58 in a 40 at 6 30am ,he was very generous as it was much much more than that ! That was in 1984 .
Davidonly said:
Before scamming was an olympic sport
Also, speed-limits are lowered routinely and several convulsions of the 'business-plan' have been created (by imaginative ex-senior police-officers / LAS and technology providers) to provide an on-going and lucrative funding scheme into-which various snouts are inserted.
The way you have worded this is fantastic and sums up what put an end to my 35 year driving record without as much as a parking ticket.Also, speed-limits are lowered routinely and several convulsions of the 'business-plan' have been created (by imaginative ex-senior police-officers / LAS and technology providers) to provide an on-going and lucrative funding scheme into-which various snouts are inserted.
The local authority changed a 40 mph limit that had been in place for over thirty years by discreetly removing the 40 signs thus making it the same limit as the surrounding roads (30) and sticking a camera van there on a regular basis.
No warning that the old limit had been changed, nor is this particular location listed on their "safety" camera site although they do say
[i]"In addition, our mobile teams will be in use and enforcing speed complaint / concern sites across the City and County.
These sites will not be signed as they are not core casualty sites. Due to the ad hoc nature of these sites it is impossible to publish this activity in advance".[/i]
To those that say "well don't speed" this is what we are up against.
Thieving Scum.
Back in 1979, I was the chairman of our college motor club, and we used to have guest speakers on all sorts of subjects. A repeat speaker was Ron Grogan, the forensic specialist from Dunlop. Another was Chief Inspector Peter Blaxhill, of the West Midlands traffic division. There was all sorts of new technology coming through, and we got a couple of fine lectures on VASCAR and the very new radar gun (hair dryer as it became known).
After watching the video presentation, and listening to his own presentation, Peter took us outside (the meeting was in the back of a pub in Rothley) to demonstrate the gun on passing cars. The first two cars were under the limit, as shown on the readout on the gun, but the third car was over the limit......and was a Panda car!
Oh how we laughed. "Hope you got his number", "I got his number if you want it" Poor Peter, he didn't know where to look.
Anyway, he was a decent chap, and invited us to use their skid pan when we wanted to, if it was not being used by his drivers at the time. I hate to think of the hoops we'd have to go through now to manage that!
After watching the video presentation, and listening to his own presentation, Peter took us outside (the meeting was in the back of a pub in Rothley) to demonstrate the gun on passing cars. The first two cars were under the limit, as shown on the readout on the gun, but the third car was over the limit......and was a Panda car!
Oh how we laughed. "Hope you got his number", "I got his number if you want it" Poor Peter, he didn't know where to look.
Anyway, he was a decent chap, and invited us to use their skid pan when we wanted to, if it was not being used by his drivers at the time. I hate to think of the hoops we'd have to go through now to manage that!
Regardless of my personal dislike for scameras, whatever the reasons for the drop in deaths and KSIs , the actual drop is fabulous, and vehicles travelling slower because of the scameras will play a part in these figures.
I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.
The roads have certainly become busier in the time since scameras were introduced, so you could argue that standards must have increased.
For HGVs VOSA/DVSA are probably more of a pain in the arse than the Police ever were.
I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.
The roads have certainly become busier in the time since scameras were introduced, so you could argue that standards must have increased.
For HGVs VOSA/DVSA are probably more of a pain in the arse than the Police ever were.
Figures can prove anything here are the KSI figures from 1966 to 1990
seriously slightly
killed injured injured
1990 5,217 60,000 275,000 336,000
1980 5,953 323,000
1970 7,499 356,000
1966 7,985 Highest recorded peacetime fatality rate.
The only legislation that was introduced between these years were IIRC seat belts and breath tests
seriously slightly
killed injured injured
1990 5,217 60,000 275,000 336,000
1980 5,953 323,000
1970 7,499 356,000
1966 7,985 Highest recorded peacetime fatality rate.
The only legislation that was introduced between these years were IIRC seat belts and breath tests
jefword said:
The way you have worded this is fantastic and sums up what put an end to my 35 year driving record without as much as a parking ticket.
The local authority changed a 40 mph limit that had been in place for over thirty years by discreetly removing the 40 signs thus making it the same limit as the surrounding roads (30) and sticking a camera van there on a regular basis.
No warning that the old limit had been changed, nor is this particular location listed on their "safety" camera site although they do say
[i]"In addition, our mobile teams will be in use and enforcing speed complaint / concern sites across the City and County.
These sites will not be signed as they are not core casualty sites. Due to the ad hoc nature of these sites it is impossible to publish this activity in advance".[/i]
To those that say "well don't speed" this is what we are up against.
Thieving Scum.
They did this in Reading. Western entry was a 40.The local authority changed a 40 mph limit that had been in place for over thirty years by discreetly removing the 40 signs thus making it the same limit as the surrounding roads (30) and sticking a camera van there on a regular basis.
No warning that the old limit had been changed, nor is this particular location listed on their "safety" camera site although they do say
[i]"In addition, our mobile teams will be in use and enforcing speed complaint / concern sites across the City and County.
These sites will not be signed as they are not core casualty sites. Due to the ad hoc nature of these sites it is impossible to publish this activity in advance".[/i]
To those that say "well don't speed" this is what we are up against.
Thieving Scum.
Changed to a 30.
They had signs. They had 1 very small sign hidden by an overgrown bush. I only knew as my Dad works for a public agency and alerted me that even some of their drivers had been caught.
essayer said:
Rover 100 crash test (presume equivalent result for the 1991 Metro)
http://youtu.be/aIs1DaxEcfs
Slightly off topic, but does it look to anyone else like the drivers airbag in that Rover 100 just comes adrift, and slides round the dummy's head?http://youtu.be/aIs1DaxEcfs
On topic,
Personally, I think standards are worse since the early 90s, but not so much about speed per se.
I think it's more about distractions, of which mobiles are a big part in recent years. Impatience as well, such as tailgating and road rage, though this is probably a symptom of busier roads and prolific recording of incidents, that just wasn't possible back then.
But also, there's something about people taking driving "for granted". I.e. it's not an activity people feel they have to be careful about, it's just something they do, like brushing their teeth.
I noticed the "silly girl" thread just now: who'se letting her work at a hospice distract her driving to the point she's stopped being aware of important considerations when driving, such as her speed. I wouldn't want to be a passenger in a car going 60 driven by someone who isn't really thinking about what they're doing, and I wouldn't want my kids walking to school alongside drivers doing that.
In the early 90s, if it was cold, you had to de-frost your car (inside and out). When it was wet, the wipers didn't really work, and you had to reach round and wipe all the windows, because the de-misters didn't work. When it was slippery, you ended up facing the wrong way, especially if you had to stop in a hurry. When it was dark, the headlights didn't really reach very far ahead. The radio, generally, would be drowned out on the motorway. In summer, cars overheated in traffic jams, and in winter they would take ages to start.
Nowadays, cars are a bit of a bubble, and I just feel that some drivers, when putting themselves into what is, frankly, a pretty complex and dangerous system, they just don't seem to give that much of a toss about it, rather than apprecaite they now have responsiblity for making the bit of road network they are in operate safetly.
You only have to look at drivers oblivious to lane discipline to realise they're not driving in the wrong lane "on purpose", they just genuinely have no idea that it's something they should be thinking about. The same with stopping distances, and even speed in urban areas, particuarly at night or in the wet.
I think people in the late 80s, early 90s were still of the generation where getting and running a car was a bit of an achievement, and something that took some thought.
Still, I reckon factors like poorer safety standards and attitudes to drink driving back then probably resulted in greater deaths relative to now.
I'm not aiming at the very small proprtion who have always had zero respect for driving law: this is more about a growing group in the middle that just seem to have disconnected their "human right" to drive a car around with any personal responsiblity that comes with driving.
Or maybe I'm just getting old, and need to settle down into an armchair in the "advanced driving" forum.
Ian
I was once prosecuted, in 1963, and fined/endorsed for 41 mph in a 30 limit. Fair enough you might say, but it was on the old A1 near Stevenage and the limit there went to 40 just 26 hours later. I know it was 'the law', but it did seem rather 'picky'. The new signs were already in place with bits of sacking over them.
Steve H said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.
Seriously? I would have to disagree.I don't know where you live Nigel, but the standard of driving in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow and Edinburgh is utterly, absolutely appalling; and it's getting worse, because there are no traffic cars acting as a deterrent. It really is that simple.
People don't park anymore; they abandon cars everywhere. We have no traffic wardens anywhere that I know of. They have all been made redundant. People park on double yellows in the most dangerous of places; they abandon cars taking up two spaces; they block driveways and entrances. They park on private property because they don't give a s
t about anyone else or their property.The practice of tail-gating at high speed on the motorways is almost at epidemic proportions, as is middle and outer lane hogging at stupidly low speeds. Negotiating roundabouts is now simply a guessing game. Drivers entering at insane speeds, no indicators, cutting across lanes with no warning, indicating left then turning right across your path and vice versa.
However, the most worrying trends at the moment are the most potentially dangerous, that of red light jumping and throwing the driver's door open into oncoming traffic. These are becoming almost a national sport and are clearly desperately dangerous. What's more, the act of doing so in almost all occasions is deliberate, not careless or neglectful, but deliberate. Totally unacceptable. And the police do nothing. In fact they're not there to do anything anyway!
Almost all of us who had a serious interest in road safety were extremely concerned at the start of the speed camera era, because we could see the obvious danger in what was to become automated enforcement and the slow but steady decline of the Roads Policing units. History has also demonstrated the driving force of those behind these systems who profit hugely from their implementation and have a vested interest in maintaining them for selfish reasons.
If there is not a complete change in policy in this country, and I see no sign of that happening, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
It is completely beyond me Nigel, that you can state that driving standards are not falling: it is simply not true by any standards, and that is also true of many police drivers who are now clearly not trained to anything approaching a satisfactory standard.
J
jith said:
As would I with a vengeance. You have stated this before Nigel on other posts, and I cannot believe anyone who is even a mildly capable driver can make a statement like that today. And before you even hint that it must be my driving, I trained to Class 1 advanced in the early '70s when it really meant something.
I don't know where you live Nigel, but the standard of driving in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow and Edinburgh is utterly, absolutely appalling; and it's getting worse, because there are no traffic cars acting as a deterrent. It really is that simple.
People don't park anymore; they abandon cars everywhere. We have no traffic wardens anywhere that I know of. They have all been made redundant. People park on double yellows in the most dangerous of places; they abandon cars taking up two spaces; they block driveways and entrances. They park on private property because they don't give a st about anyone else or their property.
The practice of tail-gating at high speed on the motorways is almost at epidemic proportions, as is middle and outer lane hogging at stupidly low speeds. Negotiating roundabouts is now simply a guessing game. Drivers entering at insane speeds, no indicators, cutting across lanes with no warning, indicating left then turning right across your path and vice versa.
However, the most worrying trends at the moment are the most potentially dangerous, that of red light jumping and throwing the driver's door open into oncoming traffic. These are becoming almost a national sport and are clearly desperately dangerous. What's more, the act of doing so in almost all occasions is deliberate, not careless or neglectful, but deliberate. Totally unacceptable. And the police do nothing. In fact they're not there to do anything anyway!
Almost all of us who had a serious interest in road safety were extremely concerned at the start of the speed camera era, because we could see the obvious danger in what was to become automated enforcement and the slow but steady decline of the Roads Policing units. History has also demonstrated the driving force of those behind these systems who profit hugely from their implementation and have a vested interest in maintaining them for selfish reasons.
If there is not a complete change in policy in this country, and I see no sign of that happening, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
It is completely beyond me Nigel, that you can state that driving standards are not falling: it is simply not true by any standards, and that is also true of many police drivers who are now clearly not trained to anything approaching a satisfactory standard.
J
+1.I don't know where you live Nigel, but the standard of driving in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow and Edinburgh is utterly, absolutely appalling; and it's getting worse, because there are no traffic cars acting as a deterrent. It really is that simple.
People don't park anymore; they abandon cars everywhere. We have no traffic wardens anywhere that I know of. They have all been made redundant. People park on double yellows in the most dangerous of places; they abandon cars taking up two spaces; they block driveways and entrances. They park on private property because they don't give a s
t about anyone else or their property.The practice of tail-gating at high speed on the motorways is almost at epidemic proportions, as is middle and outer lane hogging at stupidly low speeds. Negotiating roundabouts is now simply a guessing game. Drivers entering at insane speeds, no indicators, cutting across lanes with no warning, indicating left then turning right across your path and vice versa.
However, the most worrying trends at the moment are the most potentially dangerous, that of red light jumping and throwing the driver's door open into oncoming traffic. These are becoming almost a national sport and are clearly desperately dangerous. What's more, the act of doing so in almost all occasions is deliberate, not careless or neglectful, but deliberate. Totally unacceptable. And the police do nothing. In fact they're not there to do anything anyway!
Almost all of us who had a serious interest in road safety were extremely concerned at the start of the speed camera era, because we could see the obvious danger in what was to become automated enforcement and the slow but steady decline of the Roads Policing units. History has also demonstrated the driving force of those behind these systems who profit hugely from their implementation and have a vested interest in maintaining them for selfish reasons.
If there is not a complete change in policy in this country, and I see no sign of that happening, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
It is completely beyond me Nigel, that you can state that driving standards are not falling: it is simply not true by any standards, and that is also true of many police drivers who are now clearly not trained to anything approaching a satisfactory standard.
J
I try to drive as per Roadcraft (I'm not perfect, though!), and more recently I spent a day care of Ride Drive with a serving Lancs Class 1 police driver. He assessed me as 'low risk'. The standard of driving now IMHO is significantly worse, and only yesterday I almost got taken out by a careless driver when turning right at a roundabout. I see examples of poor to bad driving every day during my daily 80 mile drive to and from work.
jith said:
Steve H said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.
Seriously? I would have to disagree.You do keep referring to your Class 1 advanced, which a) doesn't officially exist under current structures (so how can others get it) & b) would have been only possible for pursuit trained drivers to achieve.
Did they really train you to carry out pursuits & what was the purpose of that if you were never going to pursue?
For my own (probably a lot more extensive) experience of Police driver training, I find a lot of what used to go on back in the day frankly rather embarrassing (including what I was party to & of at that time I might add), rather than something to be celebrated compared to what has happened in far more recent years in it.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th October 13:32
julianc said:
I try to drive as per Roadcraft (I'm not perfect, though!), and more recently I spent a day care of Ride Drive with a serving Lancs Class 1 police driver. He assessed me as 'low risk'. The standard of driving now IMHO is significantly worse, and only yesterday I almost got taken out by a careless driver when turning right at a roundabout. I see examples of poor to bad driving every day during my daily 80 mile drive to and from work.
I've seen poor driving on a daily basis in every decade I've been driving. If we have more drivers you are likely to see more incidents.Against that efforts are constantly being made to increase training & quality of it for drivers.
vonhosen said:
jith said:
Steve H said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.
Seriously? I would have to disagree.You do keep referring to your Class 1 advanced, which a) doesn't officially exist under current structures (so how can others get it) & b) would have been only possible for pursuit trained drivers to achieve.
Did they really train you to carry out pursuits & what was the purpose of that if you were never going to pursue?
For my own (probably a lot more extensive) experience of Police driver training, I find a lot of what used to go on back in the day frankly rather embarrassing (including what I was party to & of at that time I might add), rather than something to be celebrated compared to what has happened in far more recent years in it.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th October 13:32
I only refer to my advanced training when required, as I thought it did in this instance. As a vehicle technician I was involved in some development work as well and, in that era, you could not drive a police vehicle with exemptions without advanced training. As a private contractor, I distinctly remember having to make a significant contribution towards the training. I had no alternative as these vehicles had to be driven in the manner of a pursuit or at least a high speed run in order to test them properly, and the insurance demanded advanced drivers.
I have to admit there was a time when I was slightly tempted to join the police, but after working with some of them I realised I preferred the company of engineers. In those days it was considered that most traffic police had unmarried parents.
So to get back to the point of this post, which is not my driving qualifications, are you saying that driving standards now are acceptable or even improving and, if so, it is due to the presence of speed cameras?
J
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff