Before speed cameras.......

[vonhosen]

jith said:

vonhosen said:

jith said:

Steve H said:

Nigel Worc's said:

I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.

Seriously? I would have to disagree.

As would I with a vengeance. You have stated this before Nigel on other posts, and I cannot believe anyone who is even a mildly capable driver can make a statement like that today. And before you even hint that it must be my driving, I trained to Class 1 advanced in the early '70s when it really meant something.

It's amusing how people tend to consider the pinnacle was when they achieved & not at other times. People suffer from what might be called creeping excellence, they see themselves as always having driven at their experienced standard now & consider it the defacto norm that everybody should be driving at or judged against now, conveniently forgetting that it's taken them years/decades to get there.

You do keep referring to your Class 1 advanced, which a) doesn't officially exist under current structures (so how can others get it) & b) would have been only possible for pursuit trained drivers to achieve.
Did they really train you to carry out pursuits & what was the purpose of that if you were never going to pursue?

For my own (probably a lot more extensive) experience of Police driver training, I find a lot of what used to go on back in the day frankly rather embarrassing (including what I was party to & of at that time I might add), rather than something to be celebrated compared to what has happened in far more recent years in it.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th October 13:32

These people, "suffering from creeping excellence" vonhosen; I take it you class yourself in the same vein as you are probably not much younger than I. My remarks are not based on every driver on the road being of highly advanced training, and that should be obvious to anyone reading the contents of the post in the correct context.

I only refer to my advanced training when required, as I thought it did in this instance. As a vehicle technician I was involved in some development work as well and, in that era, you could not drive a police vehicle with exemptions without advanced training. As a private contractor, I distinctly remember having to make a significant contribution towards the training. I had no alternative as these vehicles had to be driven in the manner of a pursuit or at least a high speed run in order to test them properly, and the insurance demanded advanced drivers.

I have to admit there was a time when I was slightly tempted to join the police, but after working with some of them I realised I preferred the company of engineers. In those days it was considered that most traffic police had unmarried parents.

So to get back to the point of this post, which is not my driving qualifications, are you saying that driving standards now are acceptable or even improving and, if so, it is due to the presence of speed cameras?

J

I'm not saying it was better when I did it, like you, I'm saying it was worse.
Also I'm not an excellent driver & qualifications don't count for much in my book compared to one's current actions.

I'm saying it wasn't Police advanced 1 (if you paid for it, were paid to do it, or anything else) unless it involved pursuit training. It being only possible to get the class 1 or 2 on a course involving pursuit training. You didn't answer last time I asked, did you do pursuit, or is this your own version of what amounted to Police class 1 rather than the national standards for it at the time? You brought (& often do) your driving qualifications into the thread, not I. I'm just seeking to verify your claim with regard to your 'qualification'. I don't doubt you had some training, but was it Police advanced 1 you keep saying or something you believe was akin to it & if so what's the basis of that comparative judgement?
(What does it mean or prove anyway, I've been guilty of some shocking driving since holding a Class 1 certificate).

I'm saying that standards weren't better way back when, just with more on the roads now there are likely to be greater incidence of poor driving witnessed simply through weight of numbers, which of course doesn't equate to poorer standards overall.

I'm saying that strides are continually being made to improve the quality of training delivered in driver training, both public & Police. With Police though what seems to be happening is improve the product (which is obviously a plus) but reduce the time spent on that training (which can be a negative).

[Biker 1]

I got pulled in the mid 80s by a couple of bike plod on the M25. I was in a van, downhill, with the wind behind me, bright summer sunshine, hardly any traffic, & doing some 3 figures. I pulled over by the book to the hard shoulder, was extremely polite 'its a fair cop etc'; they were extremely polite & professional to me. They then gave me the option of 3 points + £30, or summons. My boss paid the fine, & I haven't been pulled since. The bloody scameras though do my head in: they seem to be in such strange places. At least you can spot them if you've got more than 1 brain cell. The muppets/thickos seem to be unable to see them
As others have mentioned, the standard of driving IMO seems to have dropped off a cliff since Facebook & smartphones became available to the masses. How the road death rate is so low, I have no idea....

[Derek Smith]

I was in a discussion with a mixed age group about driving standards. There was an agreement with the old ones that it is a lot more difficult to drive safely nowadays than it was 20 years ago. The increase in traffic is a significant factor I think, plus the speed of traffic. Lorries could be overtaken on single carriageway roads due to poor acceleration away from a corner.

One chap said that he has to stay alert all the time as there's always something going on.

There are variations in skills levels between those who drive in the rush hour and others. I class myself now as one who tries to avoid rush hours but 15 years ago I commuted. I found it irritating but no bother. Move to now and I find I am something of a hazard at rush hour because I don't make the best of gaps and such. I was in a coach last year going along the M25 around 6 am. Traffic was moving but what got me was the speed of traffic, including our coach. The occasional car would do something outrageously dangerous and other traffic would avoid them and everyone would continue on as if nothing had happened.

I think skills levels overall have increased in the rush hour.

I drive a fair bit during the day outside of rush hours and find driving standards dreadful. Earlier this year I was driving along the A24 dual carriageway and I'd slowed slightly from 70 as I was approaching a junction. A car came up in the side road and, going by what I was told on driving courses, I checked to see if the front wheel stopped revolving. It did. Just before I got to the junction the driver pulled out and onto my lane. I had just finished overtaking another car so had nowhere to go.

I stamped on the brake expecting to hit the car 'cause there was no way I could stop in time. The pedal moved under my foot, seemingly from side to side but that can't be. My car got ever so slightly sideways but not much. Somehow I didn't hit anything. I could not believe it. The car I had just overtaken came up my inside, arrow straight and stopped.

I 'came all over funny', with tingling arms and my mouth going dry. 20 years ago it was a certain 3x vehicle accident at speed. Perhaps that's why there are fewer accidents: better driving in rush hours and superb safety features.

The driver of the errant car was on a mobile according to my crying wife.

[jkh112]

Steve H said:

Percentage of cars with stability control systems fitted in 1990, zero.

Percentage of cars with SRS systems fitted in 1990, almost zero.

Percentage of cars with stability control and airbags in 2015, 100%.

I agree with the sentiment of your post but I have to disagree with 100% of cars having stability control and airbags in 2015.

[InitialDave]

jkh112 said:

I agree with the sentiment of your post but I have to disagree with 100% of cars having stability control and airbags in 2015.

Be charitable and assume he means new cars.

[jith]

vonhosen said:

jith said:

vonhosen said:

jith said:

Steve H said:

Nigel Worc's said:

I don't think the standard of driving has dropped since the introduction of scameras and the withdrawal of Police Patrols.

Seriously? I would have to disagree.

As would I with a vengeance. You have stated this before Nigel on other posts, and I cannot believe anyone who is even a mildly capable driver can make a statement like that today. And before you even hint that it must be my driving, I trained to Class 1 advanced in the early '70s when it really meant something.

It's amusing how people tend to consider the pinnacle was when they achieved & not at other times. People suffer from what might be called creeping excellence, they see themselves as always having driven at their experienced standard now & consider it the defacto norm that everybody should be driving at or judged against now, conveniently forgetting that it's taken them years/decades to get there.

You do keep referring to your Class 1 advanced, which a) doesn't officially exist under current structures (so how can others get it) & b) would have been only possible for pursuit trained drivers to achieve.
Did they really train you to carry out pursuits & what was the purpose of that if you were never going to pursue?

For my own (probably a lot more extensive) experience of Police driver training, I find a lot of what used to go on back in the day frankly rather embarrassing (including what I was party to & of at that time I might add), rather than something to be celebrated compared to what has happened in far more recent years in it.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th October 13:32

These people, "suffering from creeping excellence" vonhosen; I take it you class yourself in the same vein as you are probably not much younger than I. My remarks are not based on every driver on the road being of highly advanced training, and that should be obvious to anyone reading the contents of the post in the correct context.

I only refer to my advanced training when required, as I thought it did in this instance. As a vehicle technician I was involved in some development work as well and, in that era, you could not drive a police vehicle with exemptions without advanced training. As a private contractor, I distinctly remember having to make a significant contribution towards the training. I had no alternative as these vehicles had to be driven in the manner of a pursuit or at least a high speed run in order to test them properly, and the insurance demanded advanced drivers.

I have to admit there was a time when I was slightly tempted to join the police, but after working with some of them I realised I preferred the company of engineers. In those days it was considered that most traffic police had unmarried parents.

So to get back to the point of this post, which is not my driving qualifications, are you saying that driving standards now are acceptable or even improving and, if so, it is due to the presence of speed cameras?

J

I'm not saying it was better when I did it, like you, I'm saying it was worse.
Also I'm not an excellent driver & qualifications don't count for much in my book compared to one's current actions.

I'm saying it wasn't Police advanced 1 (if you paid for it, were paid to do it, or anything else) unless it involved pursuit training. It being only possible to get the class 1 or 2 on a course involving pursuit training. You didn't answer last time I asked, did you do pursuit, or is this your own version of what amounted to Police class 1 rather than the national standards for it at the time? You brought (& often do) your driving qualifications into the thread, not I. I'm just seeking to verify your claim with regard to your 'qualification'. I don't doubt you had some training, but was it Police advanced 1 you keep saying or something you believe was akin to it & if so what's the basis of that comparative judgement?
(What does it mean or prove anyway, I've been guilty of some shocking driving since holding a Class 1 certificate).

I'm saying that standards weren't better way back when, just with more on the roads now there are likely to be greater incidence of poor driving witnessed simply through weight of numbers, which of course doesn't equate to poorer standards overall.

I'm saying that strides are continually being made to improve the quality of training delivered in driver training, both public & Police. With Police though what seems to be happening is improve the product (which is obviously a plus) but reduce the time spent on that training (which can be a negative).

Von, apologies for the delay, I'm seriously busy right now. I'm flattered you are taking such an interest in my driving experience, although I can't see why. Right, just for the record, I have never claimed or would wish to be known as a Class 1 police driver, because I'm not and never have been. What I did do though was train to what was known as Class 1 at that time in Scotland. This did not involve real pursuits, but did involve pursuing a marked police car as a target across some of the best roads in the country in the north of Scotland. You have to appreciate that this was a long time ago, but my memory is clear on the fact that it was unexpectedly scary. It was in a Rover with four up and the instructor constantly goading to go faster, and faster.

What it did demonstrate to me is the amount of sheer concentration it requires to drive a car properly; at any speed, but especially at speed on a public road. It was also the start of a transformation in my attitude to driving, and the firm belief that you never stop learning, no matter how old or experienced you become. What also surprised me was the fact that so many others on the course who were police officers just seemed to see it as a requirement for their job and nothing else. They had no enthusiasm for driving or particular interest in cars, and I really wondered what the hell they were doing in the job.

I am gobsmacked at your confession that you are guilty of some shocking driving. As an advanced instructor at your level anything short of driving excellence is not acceptable and you are a very naughty boy!

Driver training, dear me, what a can of worms. About 5 years ago I had thought it would be nice to earn a crust later in life teaching advanced driving. However, it transpired that you cannot teach at an advanced level, except within the police force, without first becoming a DSA instructor.

I duly booked a full day assessment with a chap who had a first class reputation as a driving instructor instructor, if you see what I mean. I spent most of the day with him in has driving school car being shown what was required to become a DSA instructor and the requirements that students were expected to reach to pass their driving test.

By mid afternoon I knew there wans't a hope in hell of me doing this job as it involved total conflict between what I knew to be the correct way to drive a vehicle and what I would be expected to teach and modify my driving to. I then took this instructor out in my Audi and showed him some of what advanced driving is about and he was astounded that it is possible to drive a vehicle quickly and safely at the same time.

The driving test and the manner in which students are taught to pass is totally and utterly inadequate and inappropriate for today's traffic and conditions. I cannot believe you would state that standards are continually improving because it simply and absolutely is not true.

What has massively improved is vehicle technology, and it is that one single factor that has allowed so many more drivers of highly questionable ability to get on the roads. If these same drivers were placed in car from the '70s they would not have a hope in hell of driving it let alone passing a test. The same philosophy also applies to the accident statistics that those in charge would have you believe are down to speed cameras and the assumed magic effect they have on driving standards. The advances in braking systems, roadholding, suspension design and, most importantly tyres is what is saving lives and getting the incompetents out of trouble on a daily basis. When a collision does occur the same technology in a modern car result in minimal injury in many cases: the single reason why KSIs have been reduced. Nothing whatever to do with speed cameras.

There is a limit to that effect however, and I believe we have now exceeded that and the combination of poor driver training, no visible police presence as a deterrent effect and very limited prosecutions, other than automated enforcement which massively exceeds anything the police do on the roads will result in significant increases in collisions.

J

[vonhosen]

Driver training has no real focus on driving 'quickly' on road in the UK (save where exemptions are to be used). It's focus is on safe, legal & appropriate, whether that be learner, vocational, advanced or anything else.
Having trained in both Police & private sectors I don't suffer a conflict between the two spheres, it's slightly different strokes for different beasts.
Having also been exposed to a variety of driver training methods across multiple nations, let alone different institutions throughout the UK, I can see weaknesses/strengths across the board. My point is 'ye olde' Police advanced training was not all it is oft cracked up to be & is not deserving of the pedestal it is oft placed upon by those who studied under it. It was flawed in many areas & some of my failings as a driver were probably as a result of it. I found it relatively easy to do what was required to be successful but it didn't address what was really important for me to be a good driver by completely failing to address (even undermining you might say) some of the most important areas.
Having seen from the inside (both Police & private) some of changes proposed/implemented for driver training I can confidently say that the training on the whole is in a better place than it was prior, due to the fact there have been those changes. It is also in a constant state of review/update & if it does deteriorate that will likely to be not because of updates to the methodolgy or best practice, but because of budget cuts resulting in simply less of it.

[austinsmirk]

In the 80's as a schoolboy, I had a year getting lifts to school with a couple of older lads in their cars.

one had a BMW 325, the other a 2CV

On this particular day we were 5 up in a 2CV, we got pulled for doing 57 in a 30/40 ? Nick was over joyed his car had gone so fast !!! (tb fair it would have been a brand new one: not an old nail).

[AH33]

djohnson said:

My recollection of the pre speed camera days of the early 1990s is that 40 – 45mph was pretty normal in many 30 mph zones and people sticking carefully to the limit were exceptions. There’s far more respect for limits like this today.

Not in my car

[Derek Smith]

The old days of having a bible had all the faults of other systems with similar bibles.

Roadcraft was a model and models have their places. The problem with driver training in my day was that there was pressure to conform to set mores, the reason being, some suggest, is that it was easy to mark. The idea was that you would be classed 1-4 and then get points within your group. I remember our Special Operations Group driver, the best I've ever driven with, getting his 100. He was no better. One driver, a real class act, got a point deducted for removing his normal glasses when stationary in traffic and putting on a pair of prescription sunglasses, the suggestion being he was, for that couple of seconds, driving without corrected vision.

The idea of feeding the steering wheel through hands was something that always got criticised from those wanting to change police systems. It was tilting at a windmill as although there is little justification for enforcing it, there is just as little for banning it. It's a model.

When trying to put new ideas into force, the main stumbling block was not the individual instructors normally but the traffic hierarchy. If there was a new idea outside the door they'd put garlic around the frame. I tried to introduce variable length course, the idea being that drivers should reach a certain standard, rather than train for a set period and then be marked. When the first person to gain a class 1 on my new method wrote off a car I was asked to traffic HQ to explain myself.

I'm glad to hear that some forces have improved their training methods. In mine, training has been cut to the bone and being able to drive on blues and twos is, it seems, only for a small elite. That's not an improvement.