Any Property Boundary Expert On Here?
Discussion
Rude-boy said:
Well blow me!
now I've read the full thread to here most other than Donald Duck and the bloke who iinsurance companies love have be logical and added to the discussion. There is a common vein of thought here though.
I 100% would leave it for now. Make sure the land is kept cut and tidy.
Yes you ccould spend a few thousand to enforce your claim. That said a covenant not to fence might also be a barrier to your iintended barrier.
Now if the neighbours start to put a fence up to your drive, tthat's when you mention it politely and write to the council to invite their ssurveyors over and pucker up for a quick 'win' or a long, painful and expensive experience with your partner telling you they told you so.
Meantime the Council rehome tenants and move in some whose idea of garden furniture involves a broken tumble drye, various bits of bent metal, a shopping trolley, back seat of an old BMW or Ford and an oil drum for burning 'stuff'.
Meantime, just as you notice the electricity bill is somehow £1397.85 for June your partner finally tells you they are going to stay with their mum for a while.
This is what I don't get. Is it really a claim? To me it just looks like a line on open plan grass that has not been defined. The neighbours may be perfectly reasonable and already realise this (well, maybe not). A friendly chat sticking the plan under their nose to ask if they realise that the land goes beyond the drive would give the OP a clue.now I've read the full thread to here most other than Donald Duck and the bloke who iinsurance companies love have be logical and added to the discussion. There is a common vein of thought here though.
I 100% would leave it for now. Make sure the land is kept cut and tidy.
Yes you ccould spend a few thousand to enforce your claim. That said a covenant not to fence might also be a barrier to your iintended barrier.
Now if the neighbours start to put a fence up to your drive, tthat's when you mention it politely and write to the council to invite their ssurveyors over and pucker up for a quick 'win' or a long, painful and expensive experience with your partner telling you they told you so.
Meantime the Council rehome tenants and move in some whose idea of garden furniture involves a broken tumble drye, various bits of bent metal, a shopping trolley, back seat of an old BMW or Ford and an oil drum for burning 'stuff'.
Meantime, just as you notice the electricity bill is somehow £1397.85 for June your partner finally tells you they are going to stay with their mum for a while.
I'd agree going in hard ball demanding they "get orf my land" is likely to get a bad response. The OP may already have made a judgement as to whether these are good folks, or folks who would react badly even to a friendly approach....
What you might have to consider is that your title deed is wrong.
I presume that your house was originally a council house but was bought by a previous occupier under the 'right to buy' scheme. When these sales go through, the council has to draw up a deed plan for for the sold property because they only usually have deed plans for the whole estate but don't have individual house plans as until they sell a house, they have no need for them.
Under the 'right to buy' scheme, the tenant has a right to purchase the garden which they 'enjoy' as a tenant so when the sale is going through, the council is supposed to draw up a plan based on what is currently being used by that tenant, this often varies quite a bit from the way the way the gardens were originally set out many years before.
In my experience, the new deed plans are often full of mistakes as the draughtsmen copy them from old maps and drawings without visiting the site to see what is actually there. If no-one picks up the discrepancy the sale goes through with a deed plan which does not reflect reality.
I've seen a number of disputes which have arisen years after a sale when someone notices that the plan doesn't reflect reality and tries to take back 'what is rightfully theirs'. Almost every time, the result has been that the mistake in the deed plan is acknowledged and rectified and the boundaries left as they are.
OP, if your neighbour was a tenant at the time of the original house sale and has used the garden the way it is currently set up since then, then I'd expect them to win any dispute over this land. I'd take the advice of others on this and let sleeping dogs lie.
I presume that your house was originally a council house but was bought by a previous occupier under the 'right to buy' scheme. When these sales go through, the council has to draw up a deed plan for for the sold property because they only usually have deed plans for the whole estate but don't have individual house plans as until they sell a house, they have no need for them.
Under the 'right to buy' scheme, the tenant has a right to purchase the garden which they 'enjoy' as a tenant so when the sale is going through, the council is supposed to draw up a plan based on what is currently being used by that tenant, this often varies quite a bit from the way the way the gardens were originally set out many years before.
In my experience, the new deed plans are often full of mistakes as the draughtsmen copy them from old maps and drawings without visiting the site to see what is actually there. If no-one picks up the discrepancy the sale goes through with a deed plan which does not reflect reality.
I've seen a number of disputes which have arisen years after a sale when someone notices that the plan doesn't reflect reality and tries to take back 'what is rightfully theirs'. Almost every time, the result has been that the mistake in the deed plan is acknowledged and rectified and the boundaries left as they are.
OP, if your neighbour was a tenant at the time of the original house sale and has used the garden the way it is currently set up since then, then I'd expect them to win any dispute over this land. I'd take the advice of others on this and let sleeping dogs lie.
One thing I would say is that from the photographs it's not entirely clear as to which bit is incorrect.
An aerial shot from a drone would be ideal however I suspect you don't have one of those...or it would have been posted!
The key, I think, is where the drive ends up meeting the road. On the title plan you have that little point in the bottom left hand corner as it's oriented on here. Can you stand further back and take a photograph of the front of your house including where the drive meets the road? It'll likely be possible to get a similar effect from an upstairs window looking out.
Post back and we'll see!
An aerial shot from a drone would be ideal however I suspect you don't have one of those...or it would have been posted!
The key, I think, is where the drive ends up meeting the road. On the title plan you have that little point in the bottom left hand corner as it's oriented on here. Can you stand further back and take a photograph of the front of your house including where the drive meets the road? It'll likely be possible to get a similar effect from an upstairs window looking out.
Post back and we'll see!
The fence with the gate in it is flush with the front of the house, but the one on the title plan is set back slightly. Knowing where the boundary is on an unfenced verge is irrelevant, but I am guessing you want to know if the little brick walled planter area is on your land?
Assuming that your boundary is a simple extension of the boundary fence is also risky as it may not have been installed accurately.
The title plan will have a scale on it. First measure the distance from the front right hand corner of the house to the pavement and check this against the actual dimension. This will give an idea of the accuracy of the plan.
Next measure the gap between the corner of the house and the boundary in line with the front of the house.
Then get the measurement from the RHS of the property where it meets the pavement and the LHS where that meets the pavement. They should both be easy to check with actual measurements which will give you two lines to join to to understand the approximate boundary.
Decide what to do then when you fully understand where the ownership line is.
Assuming that your boundary is a simple extension of the boundary fence is also risky as it may not have been installed accurately.
The title plan will have a scale on it. First measure the distance from the front right hand corner of the house to the pavement and check this against the actual dimension. This will give an idea of the accuracy of the plan.
Next measure the gap between the corner of the house and the boundary in line with the front of the house.
Then get the measurement from the RHS of the property where it meets the pavement and the LHS where that meets the pavement. They should both be easy to check with actual measurements which will give you two lines to join to to understand the approximate boundary.
Decide what to do then when you fully understand where the ownership line is.
I'd say you need to establish which 'line' is correct: the one at the front of the house or the one at the rear as I can see three scenarios here.
The first one is that the line of the rear garden fence is correct so extending that line to the front of your property means your neighbour 'owns' some of your land.
The second is that the line of your front garden is correct so extending that line to the rear of your property means that you 'own' some of your neighbour's land.
The third is that neither line is correct but the point at the start of the fence right at the back end of your garden and the point at the start of your front garden at the footpath are correct and the straight line of your boundary goes through these two points meaning your neighbour's pinched a thin wedge of land at the front and you've pinched a thin wedge of land at the rear.
A surveyor should be able to establish which line is correct.
The first one is that the line of the rear garden fence is correct so extending that line to the front of your property means your neighbour 'owns' some of your land.
The second is that the line of your front garden is correct so extending that line to the rear of your property means that you 'own' some of your neighbour's land.
The third is that neither line is correct but the point at the start of the fence right at the back end of your garden and the point at the start of your front garden at the footpath are correct and the straight line of your boundary goes through these two points meaning your neighbour's pinched a thin wedge of land at the front and you've pinched a thin wedge of land at the rear.
A surveyor should be able to establish which line is correct.
Hi Guys,
Here is the photo someone requested looking from the house to the top of the drive. To me this point at the top corner of the drive matches the plan but if the drive was at the full extent of what I am perceiving to be the boundary then there would still be a point albeit further along if that makes sense.
Also surveyor thanks for the offer I am going to see how going round there plays out first although I have the added complication of the Mrs explicitly saying she doesn't want me going round there in case I upset neighbourly relations now.
ETA - sorry the pic has uploaded rotated, I'm on my phone so can't sort it.
Here is the photo someone requested looking from the house to the top of the drive. To me this point at the top corner of the drive matches the plan but if the drive was at the full extent of what I am perceiving to be the boundary then there would still be a point albeit further along if that makes sense.
Also surveyor thanks for the offer I am going to see how going round there plays out first although I have the added complication of the Mrs explicitly saying she doesn't want me going round there in case I upset neighbourly relations now.
ETA - sorry the pic has uploaded rotated, I'm on my phone so can't sort it.
Edited by Al U on Sunday 23 October 14:46
Al U said:
I am going to see how going round there plays out first although I have the added complication of the Mrs explicitly saying she doesn't want me going round there in case I upset neighbourly relations now.
I'm not sure why you would want to speak to the neighbours about this before getting your facts straight?I am not sure why the need to be so excited about it. It does appear that you may own a strip to the side of your drive but as far as I know no one is claiming you don't. Yes the neighbour appears to have laid some stone on it, but doesnt that just make life easier for the postman etc who probably take a short cut across the grass anyway?
I certainly wouldnt be going to see the neighbour about it unless something happens to make you think they are annexing it.
I certainly wouldnt be going to see the neighbour about it unless something happens to make you think they are annexing it.
There's a small strip of land (c.18") between our drive and our neighbour's which is completely unkempt. When we moved in, about 6 years ago, we asked and were assured, and have it in writing from our vendor and our solicitor, that it's ours. However, next door, who we're on very good terms with, think part of it is theirs. If you look at our deeds, there is a straight line from the end of the back garden to the road, and it's pretty indisputable that that line runs up the neighbour's side of the strip, i.e. it's ours. However, whilst I haven't seen their deeds, apparently theirs says differently. (Can that happen?). There have been disputes between previous owners, but not between us.
Anyway, we want to have our drive resurfaced and I want to get rid of the strip, so everything is neat & tidy. Talked to the neighbour and they're just as pleased/happy to get it tidied up. So, we want a resin-bound drive, which has to have an raised edge to it, e.g. granite setts, block pavers, etc. Next door's drive happens to be block paved, so I have said, we'll run another soldier course of blocks in the same colour as theirs (we need to set a raised edge anyway, there's nothing there at present), so it will "match" their drive and enable ours. Win win, no hassle, they're happy, we're happy.
My point being, if you pop round to the neighbours friendly-like, say you want/need to put a small fence up and you just wanted to check with them where the boundary is as you're not quite sure, you may get a lot further than you would if you drag your deeds round there and say "right, I'm putting my fence here".
Anyway, we want to have our drive resurfaced and I want to get rid of the strip, so everything is neat & tidy. Talked to the neighbour and they're just as pleased/happy to get it tidied up. So, we want a resin-bound drive, which has to have an raised edge to it, e.g. granite setts, block pavers, etc. Next door's drive happens to be block paved, so I have said, we'll run another soldier course of blocks in the same colour as theirs (we need to set a raised edge anyway, there's nothing there at present), so it will "match" their drive and enable ours. Win win, no hassle, they're happy, we're happy.
My point being, if you pop round to the neighbours friendly-like, say you want/need to put a small fence up and you just wanted to check with them where the boundary is as you're not quite sure, you may get a lot further than you would if you drag your deeds round there and say "right, I'm putting my fence here".
Edited by CAPP0 on Monday 24th October 07:12
herewego said:
If you want to see your neighbour's land registry plan you can get a copy for just a few quid from their website. Make sure you're on the actual land registry site and not a scammer's site.
A word of caution regarding the Land registry plans route, they are not sufficiently accurate to measure off to determine where the intended boundary is. They are usually created off OS types plans at a scale of 1:1250. Meaning each meter on the ground is only 0.89mm long, or put another way the black line showing the intended boundary if drawn with a 0.3mm line is 340mm wide on the ground, nearly 3 times as wide as a post and rail fence! Factor in normal reprographic distortion then they are certainly for 'guidance only'.The OP's deed plan is sufficient to show that there is an intended boundary running along the side of the OP's drive, but not where the exact line exists as there are no written dimensions or reference points. Looking at the plan, it actually looks like the boundary flares out from the building line towards the boundary so I wouldn't even like to confirm that the boundary line is intended to follow the rear garden fence line.
It's all immaterial if the OP and the adjoining tenant are comfortable with the existing situation or with an agreed demarcation, but the two points I would make are that:-
- Given none of the other surrounding gardens are sub-divided by a fence, there may be a covenant preventing any fences to the front gardens, worth checking, and
- Given the tiny area being discussed, if it was me I'd be happy to leave the existing situation unchallenged.
herewego said:
If you want to see your neighbour's land registry plan you can get a copy for just a few quid from their website. Make sure you're on the actual land registry site and not a scammer's site.
Thanks - is the owner/occupant alerted if you do this?Point taken about the scale and pen thicknesses etc - in my case it could only possibly be questioned if the deeds showed anything other than a straight line, otherwise it's obviously apparent (corner boundary at bottom of garden to right-angle pavement boundary at the front).
CAPP0 said:
Point taken about the scale and pen thicknesses etc - in my case it could only possibly be questioned if the deeds showed anything other than a straight line, otherwise it's obviously apparent (corner boundary at bottom of garden to right-angle pavement boundary at the front).
But if you look at your deed plan, that isn't what that shows is it? Your deed plan boundary isn't a straight line from the bottom of your back garden to the highway kerb, it's got a slight kink in it. The boundary is also shown intersecting with the kerb on the curve, not at any specific reference point on the kerb.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff