What does this parking sign say?
Discussion
Alucidnation said:
Its two different signs for two different situations.
Not that difficult to understand surely?
No it isn't. But to a visitor seeing it for the first time not so. Some have been caught out on these signs.Not that difficult to understand surely?
How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
Vipers said:
No it isn't. But to a visitor seeing it for the first time not so. Some have been caught out on these signs.
How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
Are these signs not simply for information, i.e. advisory? Like the actual arrow, lane markings on the road are?How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
However, ignore them at your own peril / risk!
Cliftonite said:
Vipers said:
No it isn't. But to a visitor seeing it for the first time not so. Some have been caught out on these signs.
How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
Are these signs not simply for information, i.e. advisory? Like the actual arrow, lane markings on the road are?How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
However, ignore them at your own peril / risk!
williamp said:
Cliftonite said:
Vipers said:
No it isn't. But to a visitor seeing it for the first time not so. Some have been caught out on these signs.
How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
Are these signs not simply for information, i.e. advisory? Like the actual arrow, lane markings on the road are?How many I wonder know what "EXCEPT BUSES" means.
You see these at junctions to allow cars to turn into the bus lane to turn left. I asked the police if these only applied during bus time operations, they said no, its 24/7
I then wrote to the council for their interpretation, the obvious answer is they only apply during bus lane operation, if not you would bimble down the bus lane (when it's not a bus lane), and to cross the junction move over to L2, cross the junction and move back into L1.
I did look but couldn't actually find that in the HC, so what is obvious to some isn't to others.
However, ignore them at your own peril / risk!
My point was though that the sign is not that clear, (to some), even the police got it wrong. When its not a bus lane, the "Except buses" doesnt apply, you are already in the bus lane going straight over a junction to continue in the same lane.
Of course if you didnt turn left when it was a bus lane, you would cross the junction into another bus lane.
Riley Blue said:
Alucidnation said:
Its two different signs for two different situations.
Not that difficult to understand surely?
I would agree. Irrespective of whether they comply with TSRGD, they're individually and collectively capable of being understood.Not that difficult to understand surely?
The LA has a duty to ensure that signage is sufficiently clear and unambiguous so that motorists know what is expected of them. TSRGD is the 'bible' on this.
LAs ignore it at their peril. I stand by my contention that those signs are in conflict.* Can you provide a link to some authority/evidence to refute my contention?
* The diagram 661A sign says that only Blue Badge holders may park in that location between 8.00am and 6.30pm. Non holders are thereby prohibited from doing so.
Yet the other sign says that those same non holders are permitted to do so. The issue here is the inherent contradiction.
Don't be seduced by the two time limits: 1.5 and 3 hours. Those are relevant to different classes of motorist. The 661A sign excludes one of them.
You can't have two signs with opposing meanings applying to the same bay. It's a nonsense and I would wager a fiver that an adjudicator would come to the same conclusion.
Red Devil said:
Riley Blue said:
Alucidnation said:
Its two different signs for two different situations.
Not that difficult to understand surely?
I would agree. Irrespective of whether they comply with TSRGD, they're individually and collectively capable of being understood.Not that difficult to understand surely?
The LA has a duty to ensure that signage is sufficiently clear and unambiguous so that motorists know what is expected of them. TSRGD is the 'bible' on this.
LAs ignore it at their peril. I stand by my contention that those signs are in conflict.* Can you provide a link to some authority/evidence to refute my contention?
* The diagram 661A sign says that only Blue Badge holders may park in that location between 8.00am and 6.30pm. Non holders are thereby prohibited from doing so.
Yet the other sign says that those same non holders are permitted to do so. The issue here is the inherent contradiction.
Don't be seduced by the two time limits: 1.5 and 3 hours. Those are relevant to different classes of motorist. The 661A sign excludes one of them.
You can't have two signs with opposing meanings applying to the same bay. It's a nonsense and I would wager a fiver that an adjudicator would come to the same conclusion.
It would appear that the LA does not want, in that location, to create reserved parking for Blue Badge holders only (which would mean dividing the available space and additional road markings). The idea is presumably to create a shared space.
Normally Blue Badge holders can park in a pay & display bay for an unlimited amount of time. After a bit more digging, I have found that it can be limited by making a specific TRO. Hence the reason for having a sign to notify drivers of same.
The logical thing to do would be to remove the word 'only' on the Diagram 661A sign but it seems it is not a permitted variant allowed by the relevant TSRGD Schedule! AFAICS a 661A sign is specific to reserved bays, not 'dual purpose' ones, so I'm not convinced that the LA can use it to achieve its apparent aim.
However AFAIK the Secretary of State is empowered to grant specific authorisation to vary any sign or road marking outwith TSRGD on application by a LA. So, to answer your question, maybe the way forward is get shot of the word 'only' via that route.
Normally Blue Badge holders can park in a pay & display bay for an unlimited amount of time. After a bit more digging, I have found that it can be limited by making a specific TRO. Hence the reason for having a sign to notify drivers of same.
The logical thing to do would be to remove the word 'only' on the Diagram 661A sign but it seems it is not a permitted variant allowed by the relevant TSRGD Schedule! AFAICS a 661A sign is specific to reserved bays, not 'dual purpose' ones, so I'm not convinced that the LA can use it to achieve its apparent aim.
However AFAIK the Secretary of State is empowered to grant specific authorisation to vary any sign or road marking outwith TSRGD on application by a LA. So, to answer your question, maybe the way forward is get shot of the word 'only' via that route.
Red Devil said:
Riley Blue said:
Alucidnation said:
Its two different signs for two different situations.
Not that difficult to understand surely?
I would agree. Irrespective of whether they comply with TSRGD, they're individually and collectively capable of being understood.Not that difficult to understand surely?
The LA has a duty to ensure that signage is sufficiently clear and unambiguous so that motorists know what is expected of them. TSRGD is the 'bible' on this.
LAs ignore it at their peril. I stand by my contention that those signs are in conflict.* Can you provide a link to some authority/evidence to refute my contention?
* The diagram 661A sign says that only Blue Badge holders may park in that location between 8.00am and 6.30pm. Non holders are thereby prohibited from doing so.
Yet the other sign says that those same non holders are permitted to do so. The issue here is the inherent contradiction.
Don't be seduced by the two time limits: 1.5 and 3 hours. Those are relevant to different classes of motorist. The 661A sign excludes one of them.
You can't have two signs with opposing meanings applying to the same bay. It's a nonsense and I would wager a fiver that an adjudicator would come to the same conclusion.
One reads and 'obeys' whichever sign is appropriate to them, which is why they are separate.
You are trying to combine the two together which won't make sense.
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