What does this parking sign say?

[sospan]

Try to word the letter so that you get a clearcut answer! No guarantee mind you.
You could pose a couple of hypothetical situations as examples of confusion?
Even a clear question along the lines of asking if you are parked legally within hours on the sign without a Blue badge?
A series of questions covering different situations asking for answers for each...
You never know, you may get answers!

[Red Devil]

Alucidnation said:

Red Devil said:

Riley Blue said:

Alucidnation said:

Its two different signs for two different situations.

Not that difficult to understand surely?

I would agree. Irrespective of whether they comply with TSRGD, they're individually and collectively capable of being understood.

Both of you are missing the key point. You 'understand' those signs one way, I another. That shows the potential for confusion. For CEOs as well as drivers.
The LA has a duty to ensure that signage is sufficiently clear and unambiguous so that motorists know what is expected of them. TSRGD is the 'bible' on this.
LAs ignore it at their peril. I stand by my contention that those signs are in conflict.* Can you provide a link to some authority/evidence to refute my contention?

 * The diagram 661A sign says that only Blue Badge holders may park in that location between 8.00am and 6.30pm. Non holders are thereby prohibited from doing so.
   Yet the other sign says that those same non holders are permitted to do so. The issue here is the inherent contradiction.
   Don't be seduced by the two time limits: 1.5 and 3 hours. Those are relevant to different classes of motorist. The 661A sign excludes one of them.  
   You can't have two signs with opposing meanings applying to the same bay. It's a nonsense and I would wager a fiver that an adjudicator would come to the same conclusion.
   

They aren't opposing though.

One reads and 'obeys' whichever sign is appropriate to them, which is why they are separate.

You are trying to combine the two together which won't make sense.

The Blue Badge scheme normally allows holders to park in pay-and-display bays for a unlimited length of time throughout a bay's period of operation (in this case 8.00am to 6.00pm). I'm well aware of what LB Barnet are trying to do here: limit a holder's stay to 3 hours. Most London Boroughs are not that stingy btw, especially the outer ones. The City, Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea, and parts of Camden don't recognise the Blue Badge scheme at all: they have their own separate ones.

I still don't believe that LB Barnet can sign it in the way it has using a separate 661A (which prohibits non badge holders from parking in that place). It needs to find an alternative. For example adding the wheelchair symbol and 3 hour limit information to the bottom of the other sign and, crucially, omitting the word only.

Assuming we can get a definite and authoritative answer, it will be interesting to see which of us is right.

Vipers said:

CoolHands said:

Location is outside Tesco, 294-296 Hale Ln, Edgware HA8 8NP

Got it guys, I am on the case, letter off to them first class Monday, got their address, Oakleigh Road South London N11 1NP, be interesting what they say, watch this space.

Have you asked for a copy of the TRO?

LB Barnet tends to have a rather blinkered approach to things which don't suit its pursuit of revenue (cf the CPZ permit debacle) or involve it in expense to put right, so you might not get a straight answer. What would be really interesting is the view of the London Tribunals Chief Adjudicator Caroline Hamilton on whether those signs are misleading per se (irrespective of which LA erected them), or indeed non-compliant with TSRGD, and thus grounds for cancellation of a PCN. Whether she would be willing to go on record though is something else.

[herewego]

Vipers said:

Letter done enclosed picture, be first class recorded on Monday.

Is that a particularly backward LA, don't they use email yet?

[Vipers]

herewego said:

Vipers said:

Letter done enclosed picture, be first class recorded on Monday.

Is that a particularly backward LA, don't they use email yet?

I am sure they do, but at least my letter, which should arrive tomorrow will be opened, and not sit in a list of hundreds of other emails, anyway watch this space.

[Kinky]

Vipers said:

I am sure they do, but at least my letter, which should arrive tomorrow will be opened, and not sit in a list of hundreds of other emails, anyway watch this space.

Well, you'll know it's arrived. Opened is another story. But if they're anything like the DVLA ........

[Vipers]

Kinky said:

Vipers said:

I am sure they do, but at least my letter, which should arrive tomorrow will be opened, and not sit in a list of hundreds of other emails, anyway watch this space.

Well, you'll know it's arrived. Opened is another story. But if they're anything like the DVLA ........

Sadly your absolutely correct, but we will see.

[Vipers]

As the bloke said half way down the building after he had jumped.

So far so good.

[Red Devil]

That signature looks like someone has been trying to do an abstract drawing in MS Paint!

[Vipers]

Red Devil said:

That signature looks like someone has been trying to do an abstract drawing in MS Paint!

I once had a letter from someone with a signature similar, totally unreadable, and no printed name either beneath it.

I replied to the same office with Dear, and handwrote the squiggle as it was, never heard from them again. It was years ago and cant remember what it was about now.

Squiggles are probably a government cover up so they cant trace the receiver.

[Red Devil]

Or else three different version purporting to be from the same person.





Want to have a guess which organisation is trying to hide behind a false front?

Any reputable organisation in which someone was signing on behalf of their boss would use the conventional norms.
i.e. their own signature, with pp & the boss's name or xxx on behalf of, not some obfuscatory nonsense like that above.

Just for s***s and giggles this was the response to the query about the signatures.

Val Smith has worked for XXXXXXXXX for some time, it is possible that she has produced a sample signature on more than one occasion which has differed to the original.

You couldn't make it up. Do such organisations really believe the public is as stupid as they are?

[TooMany2cvs]

Red Devil said:

Or else three different version purporting to be from the same person.





Want to have a guess which organisation is trying to hide behind a false front?

Any reputable organisation in which someone was signing on behalf of their boss would use the conventional norms.
i.e. their own signature, with pp & the boss's name or xxx on behalf of, not some obfuscatory nonsense like that above.

Just for s***s and giggles this was the response to the query about the signatures.

Val Smith has worked for XXXXXXXXX for some time, it is possible that she has produced a sample signature on more than one occasion which has differed to the original.

You couldn't make it up. Do such organisations really believe the public is as stupid as they are?

More likely is that there is no "Val Smith". If you've got a fake name, then you know when callers are bullstting when they "return her call" or "were speaking to her earlier", and are simply trying to just get escalated straight away. OTOH, if somebody really does call in with the name of somebody senior, then you know that it's probably real and can put it through.

[Vipers]

Red Devil said:

Or else three different version purporting to be from the same person.





Want to have a guess which organisation is trying to hide behind a false front?

Morning signature.......

Mid morning after first bottle of vino..........

Mid afternoon after dinner time drinkies..........

[Red Devil]

[Vipers]

This is the council response to my question on that sign.

---

The sign allows disabled badge holders free parking but restricts them to a limit of 3 hours, all other drivers must pay by phone or use the machine. I hope this helps clarify, please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information

Kind regards

Lisa Mertens
Civil Enforcement Supervisor
e [e-mail]
www.nsl NSL LinkedIn @nslconnect

---

Not the answer I expected, but make a note of it and when jobsworthy slaps a ticket on you, you can quote their response.

I am just waiting on if Disabled badge holders can park FREE, how does the warden know how long they have been there.

Edited by Vipers on Tuesday 15th November 18:58

[Riley Blue]

Vipers said:

I am just waiting on if Disabled badge holders can park FREE, how does the warden know how long they have been there.

Probably the same way they enforce any time restriction, by walking along a line of cars and noting their registration numbers and the time then repeating the exercise some time later - rocket science it ain't.

[KevinCamaroSS]

Vipers said:

T
I am just waiting on if Disabled badge holders can park FREE, how does the warden know how long they have been there?

Simple, they look at the blue clock on the dash with the arrival time set by the driver.

[Vipers]

KevinCamaroSS said:

Vipers said:

T
I am just waiting on if Disabled badge holders can park FREE, how does the warden know how long they have been there?

Simple, they look at the blue clock on the dash with the arrival time set by the driver.

Close, this is the official answer:-

We use hand held devices and when checking the bay would log the vehicles to ensure there isn’t an overstay. The first observed time is recorded on the penalty charge notice.

[VFK44]

Regarding variable signatures:
When I worked for "Which?", I was told that the signature at the bottom of the Editor's Column was different from her normal signature, although both were genuine. Would you want the signature that is used to gain access to all your private bank accounts etc. to be sent out to hundreds of thousands of random people, to copy at their leisure? Rather similar to the Prison Service refusing to let anyone take pictures of them holding the cell keys!

[VFK44]

Regarding variable signatures:
When I worked for "Which?", I was told that the signature at the bottom of the Editor's Column was different from her normal signature, although both were genuine. Would you want the signature that is used to gain access to all your private bank accounts etc. to be sent out to hundreds of thousands of random people, to copy at their leisure? Rather similar to the Prison Service refusing to let anyone take pictures of them holding the cell keys!