S.172 NIP - Incorrect time

Author
Discussion

rowey200

Original Poster:

428 posts

180 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Long story short, my wife has received a Notice of Intended Prosecution. The NIP alleges that her car was travelling at 35mph in a 30mph zone at 15:00 on 5/11/16. This information is incorrect as her car was parked in a hotel car park at the time, and had been since 14:20 on the day of the alleged offence when I parked it there (this can be confirmed by the hotel's CCTV).

It can be assumed that the Safety Camera Unit have not adjusted their equipment to reflect the clocks going back the week before. How should my wife respond to the NIP? She is requested to tick one of three options (see below), all of which do not apply as the car was not on a public road at the time of the alleged offence (it should also be noted that I was the only person to drive her car on the day). I'm thinking she returns the NIP with a polite explanatory letter, advising of the above. It's then for the camera unit to make the next move - thoughts? Any advice gratefully received smile












Edited by rowey200 on Tuesday 6th December 18:11

jkh112

21,889 posts

157 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
She ticks the first box to say she was not the driver at the time and she then names you as you were responsible for the car on that day.

Buster73

5,042 posts

152 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Pay up and be done with it.


Helicopter123

8,831 posts

155 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
jkh112 said:
She ticks the first box to say she was not the driver at the time and she then names you as you were responsible for the car on that day.
This.

It is then up to you how you wish to respond.

Are you denying the offence?


Mandat

3,879 posts

237 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Helicopter123 said:
This.

It is then up to you how you wish to respond.

Are you denying the offence?
If I knew that the car was parked at the time of the alleged offence, I would be denying it too.

herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
I suspect if when returning the form she includes a covering letter explaining there is evidence the car was elsewhere and parked at the time then they will drop the charge. They might change the time but I suspect they will drop it as there is no need to make life difficult for such an offence.

Truffs

266 posts

137 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Helicopter123 said:
This.

It is then up to you how you wish to respond.

Are you denying the offence?
Are you a Judge (appointed or self proclaimed internet) ?

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
herewego said:
I suspect if when returning the form she includes a covering letter explaining there is evidence the car was elsewhere and parked at the time then they will drop the charge. They might change the time but I suspect they will drop it as there is no need to make life difficult for such an offence.
I'm sure we read here quite often about minor adminstration errors simply being amended and cases continuing as normal. I'd expect a single digit on a time stamp may be considered a minor, inconsequential error if they still have clear evidence of a speeding vehicle.

IANAL.

What would I do?

Name the driver, wait for next step but keep powder dry about the time being wrong as it would be fun to possibly GIRU them smile

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
rowey200 said:
Long story short, my wife has received a Notice of Intended Prosecution. The NIP alleges that her car was travelling at 35mph in a 30mph zone at 15:00 on 5/11/16 (in Cardiff). This information is incorrect as her car was parked in a Premier Inn Car park at the time, and had been since 14:20 on the day of the alleged offence when I parked it there (this can be confirmed by Premier Inn's CCTV).

It can be assumed that the Safety Camera Unit have not adjusted their equipment to reflect the clocks going back the week before. How should my wife respond to the NIP? She is requested to tick one of three options (see below), all of which do not apply as the car was not on a public road at the time of the alleged offence (it should also be noted that I was the only person to drive her car on the day). I'm thinking she returns the NIP with a polite explanatory letter, advising of the above. It's then for the camera unit to make the next move - thoughts? Any advice gratefully received smile

None of those options.

Do not do anything until at least 14 days from the date of the offence.

Keeper must respond. Cover letter. Car not in the place mentioned at the time alleged.



simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Isn't that option 1? "I can tell you who was driving - nobody!" hehe

If you wait til 14 days, does that mean they cannot amend the form due to the 14 day rule if they realise the error?

rowey200

Original Poster:

428 posts

180 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Helicopter123 said:
This.

It is then up to you how you wish to respond.

Are you denying the offence?
.....at the time it was alleged, yes.

rowey200

Original Poster:

428 posts

180 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
agtlaw said:
None of those options.

Do not do anything until at least 14 days from the date of the offence.

Keeper must respond. Cover letter. Car not in the place mentioned at the time alleged.
Thanks Andrew smile

Without sounding like a pedant, it seems reasonable to me that the information the safety camera unit supply (their evidence of the alleged offence) should be correct. In this case it's not (which I can evidence), so I will follow your advice. Could you explain the significance of waiting 14 days?


Helicopter123

8,831 posts

155 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
rowey200 said:
Helicopter123 said:
This.

It is then up to you how you wish to respond.

Are you denying the offence?
.....at the time it was alleged, yes.
OK, then once the fresh NIP comes back to you, state your case.

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
rowey200 said:
agtlaw said:
None of those options.

Do not do anything until at least 14 days from the date of the offence.

Keeper must respond. Cover letter. Car not in the place mentioned at the time alleged.
Thanks Andrew smile

Without sounding like a pedant, it seems reasonable to me that the information the safety camera unit supply (their evidence of the alleged offence) should be correct. In this case it's not (which I can evidence), so I will follow your advice. Could you explain the significance of waiting 14 days?

Must admit I'm puzzled too. If the NIP was served on the wife as the RK then is not the service deemed good - or what am I missing?

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Leaving it 14 days until notifying the police / SCP of a potentially fatal error on a NIP means they wouldn't be able to amend and re-issue a corrected notice in time.

agtlaw

6,680 posts

205 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
Don't give them the opportunity to issue another notice (with correct details) within 14 days of the offence date. Once 14 days have passed then the ship has sailed.

Truffs

266 posts

137 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
For fear of being shot down and trying to get another virtual pat on the back from Andrew.

I am going with the form you are sent is really two with different laws applying. A section 172 which must be complied with and a NIP which has a 14 day limit. If you send back the s172 pointing out their error and the 14 day limit has not expired they can send you a correct NIP and you are stuffed. After 14 days they cannot correct it and therefore there is a very good chance nothing will happen.

I wonder if I am correct?

Truffs

266 posts

137 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
And now I realise I was correct but too slow.

The serving policeman and the Barrister got there quicker!

redjohn

1,665 posts

245 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
The NIP is a notification to the registered keeper of the intent to prosecute. It isn't the actual prosecution.

The RK is obligated by law to name the driver. Failure to do so is an offence in its own right (unless the RK demonstrated they took all reasonable measures to identify) The RK does know who was in charge of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence - her husband, she ticks box 1 and nominates the husband.

The husband then receive his notification. They can nominate a further driver, accept the likely offer of a FPN or reject. You can reject on the basis that at the time of the offence the vehicle was stationary and not at the location claimed. The SCP will either drop it not caring that it is yet another sloppy attempt or proceed to court arguing the time difference is a minor error and doesn't alter the materiality of the case (like a small error in name or location won't make a difference). You will argue it makes all the difference and even if it is 1hr due to DST it calls into question the entire calibration / procedure of the SCP - what else is inaccurate if they failed to notice the time for several days. A judge will decide which argument is correct.

Time is important. The NIP has been served in 14 days which is the first measure. The only other is a requirement to serve court papers within six months. Each response has 28 days limit so you wife should take 25 days before responding and you likewise.


herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Sunday 13th November 2016
quotequote all
redjohn said:
The NIP is a notification to the registered keeper of the intent to prosecute. It isn't the actual prosecution.

The RK is obligated by law to name the driver. Failure to do so is an offence in its own right (unless the RK demonstrated they took all reasonable measures to identify) The RK does know who was in charge of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence - her husband, she ticks box 1 and nominates the husband.

The husband then receive his notification. They can nominate a further driver, accept the likely offer of a FPN or reject. You can reject on the basis that at the time of the offence the vehicle was stationary and not at the location claimed. The SCP will either drop it not caring that it is yet another sloppy attempt or proceed to court arguing the time difference is a minor error and doesn't alter the materiality of the case (like a small error in name or location won't make a difference). You will argue it makes all the difference and even if it is 1hr due to DST it calls into question the entire calibration / procedure of the SCP - what else is inaccurate if they failed to notice the time for several days. A judge will decide which argument is correct.

Time is important. The NIP has been served in 14 days which is the first measure. The only other is a requirement to serve court papers within six months. Each response has 28 days limit so you wife should take 25 days before responding and you likewise.
I think the point is that if she nominates the OP then they can correct the offence time before sending a new S172 to the OP but if she only sends a covering letter then they won't have the opportunity.