HELP - sold a car and it was repossessed from the buyer
Discussion
KevinCamaroSS said:
Quick question.
When you swapped the cars originally did you get the original V5C or was it a duplicate (shown on face of V5C)?
If a copy then it is likely the 'seller' never owned the car in the first place, and therefore not his to sell. It would likely be a lease car owned by Barclays which he is using, he then applied for a duplicate V5C to carry out this scam.
I had a lease car and had a full original V5 in my name so i don't think you can take much from the V5 either unfortunately.When you swapped the cars originally did you get the original V5C or was it a duplicate (shown on face of V5C)?
If a copy then it is likely the 'seller' never owned the car in the first place, and therefore not his to sell. It would likely be a lease car owned by Barclays which he is using, he then applied for a duplicate V5C to carry out this scam.
motoroller said:
The car has been repossessed - as I said it was towed away from the buyer with the handbrake on and their possessions in the car. I have no reason to disbelieve that.
The legal advice isn't a blanket - those are professionals. Who am I going to believe, some anonymous posters on a forum or a professional I've consulted? Let me think...
Really? The car was towed away with the handbrake ok? With their possessions in it?The legal advice isn't a blanket - those are professionals. Who am I going to believe, some anonymous posters on a forum or a professional I've consulted? Let me think...
Come on OP, what has really happened? What did you know and what did you do?
Nezquick said:
OP
I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
OP this is clear and sensible advice which has the benefit of coming from a lawyer. Take it.I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
IanA2 said:
Nezquick said:
OP
I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
OP this is clear and sensible advice which has the benefit of coming from a lawyer. Take it.I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
funkyrobot said:
motoroller said:
The car has been repossessed - as I said it was towed away from the buyer with the handbrake on and their possessions in the car. I have no reason to disbelieve that.
The legal advice isn't a blanket - those are professionals. Who am I going to believe, some anonymous posters on a forum or a professional I've consulted? Let me think...
Really? The car was towed away with the handbrake ok? With their possessions in it?The legal advice isn't a blanket - those are professionals. Who am I going to believe, some anonymous posters on a forum or a professional I've consulted? Let me think...
Come on OP, what has really happened? What did you know and what did you do?
Just read this - looks like good advice above.
However just to add - for the benefit of everyone, not just the OP.
I got in a similar sticky situation once that wasn't my fault and got all panicky - I was advised to try my breakdown company, which I'd never even thought of.
Turns out the RAC (and presumably the AA too) have a really good legal team, the price of which is included in your cover. We all pay it but most of us never use it.
The RAC solicitors/legal advisors were superb, really good and sorted my situation right out at no cost.
So just remember that.
However just to add - for the benefit of everyone, not just the OP.
I got in a similar sticky situation once that wasn't my fault and got all panicky - I was advised to try my breakdown company, which I'd never even thought of.
Turns out the RAC (and presumably the AA too) have a really good legal team, the price of which is included in your cover. We all pay it but most of us never use it.
The RAC solicitors/legal advisors were superb, really good and sorted my situation right out at no cost.
So just remember that.
Nezquick said:
OP
I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
How would the court handle the OP knowingly selling the car with finance left on it?I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
herewego said:
you know you should have sorted it out with Barclays ... I hope you can sort it with Barclays and the swapper and get something back in the end.
OP says Barclays will not speak to him now. Why would that position change just because he has paid £12k to a third party unrelated to them or the defaulter?elanfan said:
IanA2 said:
Nezquick said:
OP
I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
OP this is clear and sensible advice which has the benefit of coming from a lawyer. Take it.I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
There is underneath all this an interesting dilemma.
Buyer purchases a car in good faith and then some months later is made aware of the outstanding finance.
Buyer has title to the goods so no issue there as long as he is only using it.
Eventually in the normal course of events comes to sell the car.
If he does not mention subsequently discovering the finance to the next buyer he is 'offloading' the problem to an innocent party.
If he does mention the finance to the next buyer he has effectively no chance of making a sale.
How can a buyer with good title get that title acknowledged legally so he can in effect exercise his right to sell his property?
Buyer purchases a car in good faith and then some months later is made aware of the outstanding finance.
Buyer has title to the goods so no issue there as long as he is only using it.
Eventually in the normal course of events comes to sell the car.
If he does not mention subsequently discovering the finance to the next buyer he is 'offloading' the problem to an innocent party.
If he does mention the finance to the next buyer he has effectively no chance of making a sale.
How can a buyer with good title get that title acknowledged legally so he can in effect exercise his right to sell his property?
funkyrobot said:
How would the court handle the OP knowingly selling the car with finance left on it?
I am not sure how you can state that, the op says a dealer said he might be interested in the car but there was outstanding finance with Barclays, OP calls Barclays who wont talk to him about it because he does not have the finance agreement with them.It is easy, with the benefit of hindsight to say the OP should have badgered Barclays or done more digging.
Just trying to put myself in that situation, if I rang a finance company that allegedly had an interest in the car I was the registered keeper of, and they refused to talk to me about it, I would be fairly satisfied that there was nothing to worry about, after all if they still had claim over it surely THEY would be interested in knowing why someone other than the person with the finance was the current keeper. I think I might put more weight behind the finance company over a car dealer who called about an add I had placed, he might have been scamming, anything.
To the OP I might consider going to see another solicitor, maybe doing some googling to see if anyone specializes in this sort of thing and gauging their opinion.
Nezquick said:
OP
I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
Get out of here with you sensible informed advice! This has no place in SP&L - do you know nothing, man.....?!I am a solicitor and were I in your shoes, there is not a chance in hell that I would be paying any amount of money to the person who bought the car off you. This is really very easy:
1. Let the buyer pursue you BEFORE you pay out anything. Whilst you may feel morally obliged to pay him back, at this stage you are not legally obliged to do so.
2. If (and only if) the buyer does pursue you, via a county court claim, at that stage you then need to consider what to do for the best. Personally, I still wouldn't pay out a penny to the buyer. What I would do is:
3. Apply to the Court to bring in the original seller/swapper of the car as an Additional Third Party (or Part 20 Defendant - Google Part 20 CPR for the details).
4. Your defence is that you swapped the car with the original seller in good faith and had no clue there was any finance outstanding on it. The seller did not give you this information.
5. Only when the COURT has decided who is at fault would I then be willing to pay anyone anything, if you are deemed to be responsible at all that is.
If you pay back the buyer before any of the above, you will never see your £12k again.
In my view, a Judge would take a very dim view of the original seller clearly trying to wriggle out of his obligations and it will give you a formal route with which to pursue him should you be found liable to the buyer.
Edited by Lurking Lawyer on Friday 18th November 13:47
ant leigh said:
There is underneath all this an interesting dilemma.
Buyer purchases a car in good faith and then some months later is made aware of the outstanding finance.
Buyer has title to the goods so no issue there as long as he is only using it.
Eventually in the normal course of events comes to sell the car.
If he does not mention subsequently discovering the finance to the next buyer he is 'offloading' the problem to an innocent party.
If he does mention the finance to the next buyer he has effectively no chance of making a sale.
How can a buyer with good title get that title acknowledged legally so he can in effect exercise his right to sell his property?
You let the finance company concerned know that you have good title to the car and they should remove their security over it. Buyer purchases a car in good faith and then some months later is made aware of the outstanding finance.
Buyer has title to the goods so no issue there as long as he is only using it.
Eventually in the normal course of events comes to sell the car.
If he does not mention subsequently discovering the finance to the next buyer he is 'offloading' the problem to an innocent party.
If he does mention the finance to the next buyer he has effectively no chance of making a sale.
How can a buyer with good title get that title acknowledged legally so he can in effect exercise his right to sell his property?
The debt will then go down as a bad debt, the original debtor defaulted and efforts made to get the money owed.
nikaiyo2 said:
I am not sure how you can state that, the op says a dealer said he might be interested in the car but there was outstanding finance with Barclays, OP calls Barclays who wont talk to him about it because he does not have the finance agreement with them.
It is easy, with the benefit of hindsight to say the OP should have badgered Barclays or done more digging.
Just trying to put myself in that situation, if I rang a finance company that allegedly had an interest in the car I was the registered keeper of, and they refused to talk to me about it, I would be fairly satisfied that there was nothing to worry about, after all if they still had claim over it surely THEY would be interested in knowing why someone other than the person with the finance was the current keeper. I think I might put more weight behind the finance company over a car dealer who called about an add I had placed, he might have been scamming, anything.
To the OP I might consider going to see another solicitor, maybe doing some googling to see if anyone specializes in this sort of thing and gauging their opinion.
If you look further up this thread, someone has said that they have been able to sort finance on a vehicle when outstanding. I think this is from the perspective of a dealer though, so may differ. It is easy, with the benefit of hindsight to say the OP should have badgered Barclays or done more digging.
Just trying to put myself in that situation, if I rang a finance company that allegedly had an interest in the car I was the registered keeper of, and they refused to talk to me about it, I would be fairly satisfied that there was nothing to worry about, after all if they still had claim over it surely THEY would be interested in knowing why someone other than the person with the finance was the current keeper. I think I might put more weight behind the finance company over a car dealer who called about an add I had placed, he might have been scamming, anything.
To the OP I might consider going to see another solicitor, maybe doing some googling to see if anyone specializes in this sort of thing and gauging their opinion.
Also, the OP said that Barclays confirmed there was finance on the vehicle (unless I have misread that), but weren't giving him any details. If Barclays did say there was finance on the vehicle though, he has been informed.
One thing I wouldn't do though is sell the vehicle on without fully knowing the situation. So, if that cost me the price of a full check, I'd do it. I would then be discussing the issue with Barclays and sorting it out with the seller of the vehicle to me.
Anyway, with this situation, there has to be more than the OP is telling us on here.
Edited to add - it looks like Barclays could neither confirm or deny there was finance on the car to the OP. Personally, this wouldn't be enough for me to base anything on. I'd get a proper check done on the car and work from there.
Edited by funkyrobot on Friday 18th November 13:48
Moily said:
Thusly the advice is no longer relevant to this particular matter.
I have admittedly only skimread through the preceding pages but isn't it the case that the OP didn't know about the finance at the time of purchase/swap and only became aware of it later?If so, and as I've pointed out before, section 27 of the Hire Purchase Act only requires that he have no knowledge of the finance at the time of purchase in order for him to gain good title.
R8Steve said:
You let the finance company concerned know that you have good title to the car and they should remove their security over it.
The debt will then go down as a bad debt, the original debtor defaulted and efforts made to get the money owed.
I did do this, their response was effectively "call your lawyers, this will have to be settled legally"The debt will then go down as a bad debt, the original debtor defaulted and efforts made to get the money owed.
motoroller said:
I did do this, their response was effectively "call your lawyers, this will have to be settled legally"
In my experience, the semi-trained call centre monkeys you get through to when you call them have little idea of what the law is - and even when they think they do, they more often than not don't.You won't get very far arguing the toss with them. I fear you are going to have to take them at their word and see whether you can get somewhere when matters get escalated internally to their legal team, who hopefully have more idea what they're talking about.
motoroller said:
I did do this, their response was effectively "call your lawyers, this will have to be settled legally"
If this is the case, have you made any form of complaint to the ombudsman? Have you even complained to Barclays?Legal route may be the only option, but getting a formal complaint sorted can only help matters?
Speak to someone who may know what they are talking about.
Lurking Lawyer said:
I have admittedly only skimread through the preceding pages but isn't it the case that the OP didn't know about the finance at the time of purchase/swap and only became aware of it later?
If so, and as I've pointed out before, section 27 of the Hire Purchase Act only requires that he have no knowledge of the finance at the time of purchase in order for him to gain good title.
You're quite right. I misread the point about when he acquired the vehicle. If so, and as I've pointed out before, section 27 of the Hire Purchase Act only requires that he have no knowledge of the finance at the time of purchase in order for him to gain good title.
motoroller said:
R8Steve said:
You let the finance company concerned know that you have good title to the car and they should remove their security over it.
The debt will then go down as a bad debt, the original debtor defaulted and efforts made to get the money owed.
I did do this, their response was effectively "call your lawyers, this will have to be settled legally"The debt will then go down as a bad debt, the original debtor defaulted and efforts made to get the money owed.
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