Absolutely seething - advice required

[_dobbo_]

LordHaveMurci said:

PCSO's have been to see us, there is no criminal act been commited sadly so they can do very little

Is this right? I was under the impression "trolling" had a whole new raft of offences attached so that it can be treated as if it happened in the "real world" rather than on the internet.

[LordHaveMurci]

davepoth said:

Push back on the PCSOs, or take it to their superiors. It seems that an offence has been committed, but it's not a simple "he punched me in the face" one that they can sort out easily.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/stalking_and_ha...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/sectio...

PCSO's told us that because it was all private messages then no offence had been committed.

Our neighbour was a D.I. until last year, turns out he was in child protection when he retired, we declined his offer of sitting in on the PCSO's visit but will run what they said past him.

[Jasandjules]

LordHaveMurci said:

PCSO's told us that because it was all private messages then no offence had been committed.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/27

Ask them where in this Act does it say PMs are not covered.

Then ask for it to be referred to an actual police officer to be taken further.

[98elise]

Keep putting pressure on.

My son suffered bullying and the school did nothing for quite some time. We complained multiple times and got nowhere but it was completely denied by the bully, and his parents. It came to a head when the bully started asking classmates for money to see him give my son a good beating at lunchtime the next day.

I sent my son in with a letter saying that they were to ring me ASAP to assure me that the beating would not be occurring, and if they couldn't assure me I would be arriving at 11 to remove my son from school. I also said that if the beating occurred before I got there then I would involve the police. It was a polite and business like letter, just facts.

By 10 o'clock they had stopped the class and got witness statements from every kid. The head asked the kids to write down all instances of bullying that was occurring in the class. My son was not singled out. My sons explanation of what happened was backed up multiple times, an apparently quite a few other issues came out.

A part from a few idle threats the bullying stopped.

[LordHaveMurci]

98elise said:

Keep putting pressure on.

My son suffered bullying and the school did nothing for quite some time. We complained multiple times and got nowhere but it was completely denied by the bully, and his parents. It came to a head when the bully started asking classmates for money to see him give my son a good beating at lunchtime the next day.

I sent my son in with a letter saying that they were to ring me ASAP to assure me that the beating would not be occurring, and if they couldn't assure me I would be arriving at 11 to remove my son from school. I also said that if the beating occurred before I got there then I would involve the police. It was a polite and business like letter, just facts.

By 10 o'clock they had stopped the class and got witness statements from every kid. The head asked the kids to write down all instances of bullying that was occurring in the class. My son was not singled out. My sons explanation of what happened was backed up multiple times, an apparently quite a few other issues came out.

A part from a few idle threats the bullying stopped.

What happened to the bully? It has been recognized by the school & the Police that this one girl is the main instigator & that there is no evidence of our daughter doing anything wrong, the main thing is how they handle it & how they stop her from continuing.

We have told the school & the Police that ideally we would like her moved, both looked at us like we were mad. We have no issue wither her NOT being moved as long as she winds her neck in & starts to behave in an acceptable manner.

[Bigends]

Jasandjules said:

LordHaveMurci said:

PCSO's told us that because it was all private messages then no offence had been committed.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/27

Ask them where in this Act does it say PMs are not covered.

Then ask for it to be referred to an actual police officer to be taken further.

Rubbish! we record communications act offences every day either malicious or nuisance in nature - many involving school kids. Private message or not - its a communication
PCSO's are not generlly well clued up on many aspects of the law - though its not their job to be

[havoc]

Bigends said:

Rubbish! we record communications act offences every day either malicious or nuisance in nature - many involving school kids. Private message or not - its a communication
PCSO's are not generlly well clued up on many aspects of the law - though its not their job to be

It's also not their job to try and dissuade the public from pressing the Police to follow-up genuine crimes, but that seems to be what they try and do some of the time...

...and because they wear a uniform, people assume they know what they're talking about.

[anonymous-user]

havoc said:

It's also not their job to try and dissuade the public from pressing the Police to follow-up genuine crimes, but that seems to be what they try and do some of the time...

...and because they wear a uniform, people assume they know what they're talking about.

In my experience even the Police take very little interest unless pushed to, there doesn't seem to be the 'ownership' of a case any more.

[LordHaveMurci]

Had an interesting chat with our neighbour earlier, 30yrs a copper, finished off his career in chil protection. He agrees with above comments & has suggested what our next steps should be.

School Deputy Head also rang, girl has been given a ONE day exclusion, that's right, 1 day!

School & PCSO are more interested in passing the buck onto each other than getting it dealt with, did get irate with her which really wasn't difficult.

[Grunt Futtock]

LordHaveMurci said:

Had an interesting chat with our neighbour earlier, 30yrs a copper, finished off his career in chil protection. He agrees with above comments & has suggested what our next steps should be.

School Deputy Head also rang, girl has been given a ONE day exclusion, that's right, 1 day!

School & PCSO are more interested in passing the buck onto each other than getting it dealt with, did get irate with her which really wasn't difficult.

I've worked in schools for nearly 10 years and seen this situation play out a lot. Couple of points:

Permanent Exclusions:

Very very rare, if at all possible problem students get sent on 'managed moves' to other schools (with the understanding that the school reciprocates with students from the receiving school). Managed moves have quite a high failure rate because the act of swapping schools rarely results in difficult students morphing into Hermione Grainger, this of course means the problem student returns to their original school.

I've only seen 2 perm exclusions in 10 years, 1 was because a student threw a vase at a teachers head (and hit them) and the teachers all refused to teach the student from that point onward. The 2nd was because a student brought a knife into school and had made threats against another student. The cost to schools of permanently excused students last time I checked was around £5k and a black mark on statistics especially if the student was in a Pupil Premium/ Looked After Child category.

Police involvement in bullying:

I've been told by more than one school police liaison officer that they are extremely reluctant to 'criminalize' young people, in reality the most you tend to see is the Police give words of advice or do home visits unless it's quite serious (note that the Police definition of serious might differ from a parents!).

All of that said if you keep the pressure on the school (Governors and Local Authority involvement if necessary) schools will try and pull out all the stops to help.

[InitialDave]

As someone who does understand how the world works, especially in the kind of climate I imagine modern schools operate in (or at least like to think they do), yes, you're right to be taking the approach you are, and I hope it works out for the best, and that your daughter will soon be "beyond reach" of such nonsense, moving forward academically while the the bullies cannot.

Just keep reminding her that yes, it will get better, and these fkers will go nowhere.

As someone who was bullied at school (~20 years ago now)... I think it would be irresponsible for me to give the advice now that I feel, in hindsight, would have been right then. It's not about taking the moral highroad, or believing in nonsense about how violence is always wrong, it's about knowing that you gave to play the game, and keep yourself squeaky clean in the face of provocation.

[mph999]

LordHaveMurci said:

I used to teach karate, it wouldn't help in this instance. I wouldn't want it to either to be fair.

I would get her started, if it does turn physical - it would end very quickly. You really really don't want to be in a position in the future where you are wishing 'if only I'd taught her to defend herself'.

The son of a mate of mine had a lad start on him, with the bullying having escalated for some time. That was the point at which he couldn't take anymore, and unfortunately for the bully he is a talented martial artist, a single punch knocked him into next week. His dad was called into the school and having confirmed that his son didn't start it, simply replied that in that case the bully had picked on the wrong person.

The bullying stopped.

Perhaps sadly, I think there is only one thing that stops bullies, that said I was at school 30 odd years ago and I appreciate things are now perhaps different, but my life was made pure hell by bullying and nothing stopped it, nothing. For me, it wasn't a case of wondering if something would happen that day, it was waiting for it to happen, every day, every single f*****g day I went to school. It was made worse that some of those involved were also involved in out-of-school activities I was involved in, so the bullying followed me around.

I don't usually talk about it, or even admit to it - but with absolutely no doubt it changed who I am. Perhaps in someways for the better, but in others not - I don't talk to people about my feelings, I stay bottled up and that has wreaked multiple relationships.

Personally, if I had children, I'd tell them to fight back, just once - hit them as hard as they can - yes they will get into trouble for a day or two, but the bullying will stop.

[davepoth]

Karate probably would help - just the knowledge that she could beat the living st out of the bully if she wanted would empower her a lot, and would make the taunts a lot easier to deal with.

[Biker 1]

davepoth said:

Karate probably would help - just the knowledge that she could beat the living st out of the bully if she wanted would empower her a lot, and would make the taunts a lot easier to deal with.

I wish I'd known how to properly fight when I was a kid - I'm 100% sure that I would have been ignored by the bullying scum bags. Hindsight, eh......

[LordHaveMurci]

I've taught her how to DEFEND herself, the PCSO's have been told this, it has never turned physical so it was more giving our daughter confidence & a feeling of control than anything else.

[poo at Paul's]

LordHaveMurci said:

Had an interesting chat with our neighbour earlier, 30yrs a copper, finished off his career in chil protection. He agrees with above comments & has suggested what our next steps should be.

School Deputy Head also rang, girl has been given a ONE day exclusion, that's right, 1 day!

School & PCSO are more interested in passing the buck onto each other than getting it dealt with, did get irate with her which really wasn't difficult.

One can tell what a useless bunch they are that they took action to seize phones when the perp was off sick.

Just a bunch of clowns. Which is why it has got to the point it has.

I think you'd have had more joy with more direct action against the perp and her parents, and leave the school out of it.

[98elise]

LordHaveMurci said:

98elise said:

Keep putting pressure on.

My son suffered bullying and the school did nothing for quite some time. We complained multiple times and got nowhere but it was completely denied by the bully, and his parents. It came to a head when the bully started asking classmates for money to see him give my son a good beating at lunchtime the next day.

I sent my son in with a letter saying that they were to ring me ASAP to assure me that the beating would not be occurring, and if they couldn't assure me I would be arriving at 11 to remove my son from school. I also said that if the beating occurred before I got there then I would involve the police. It was a polite and business like letter, just facts.

By 10 o'clock they had stopped the class and got witness statements from every kid. The head asked the kids to write down all instances of bullying that was occurring in the class. My son was not singled out. My sons explanation of what happened was backed up multiple times, an apparently quite a few other issues came out.

A part from a few idle threats the bullying stopped.

What happened to the bully? It has been recognized by the school & the Police that this one girl is the main instigator & that there is no evidence of our daughter doing anything wrong, the main thing is how they handle it & how they stop her from continuing.

We have told the school & the Police that ideally we would like her moved, both looked at us like we were mad. We have no issue wither her NOT being moved as long as she winds her neck in & starts to behave in an acceptable manner.

The school operates a seperate class for problem kids. The start and finish times are different to the rest of the school so effectively excluded from normal school, without actually removing them from the site. As I understand it they have to do mundane tasks like just copy text from a book. The bully was placed in that class for a few weeks, an was told the next step would be exclusion from school.

The turning point was getting everyone to accept that the bullying was real, and it was somthing that needed action. A lot of people say just suck it up, or fight back, but bullys normally chose someone weaker. I took the view that if something would be unacceptable in the workplace then it should be unacceptable in a school. If a workmate was bullying you they would be sacked, it they punched you they may well be sat in a cell.

Once the bully was fully exposed we had the upper hand and the school had to act.

[sim72]

Grunt Futtock said:

I've worked in schools for nearly 10 years and seen this situation play out a lot. Couple of points:

Permanent Exclusions:

Very very rare, if at all possible problem students get sent on 'managed moves' to other schools (with the understanding that the school reciprocates with students from the receiving school). Managed moves have quite a high failure rate because the act of swapping schools rarely results in difficult students morphing into Hermione Grainger, this of course means the problem student returns to their original school.

I've only seen 2 perm exclusions in 10 years, 1 was because a student threw a vase at a teachers head (and hit them) and the teachers all refused to teach the student from that point onward. The 2nd was because a student brought a knife into school and had made threats against another student. The cost to schools of permanently excused students last time I checked was around £5k and a black mark on statistics especially if the student was in a Pupil Premium/ Looked After Child category.

Not necessarily the case. Yes, managed moves are the first plan (they do work sometimes!), but our school has permanently excluded seven students in the last year, four of which were for persistent bullying. You are correct about the issues regarding LAC kids.

[Red Devil]

LordHaveMurci said:

PCSO's told us that because it was all private messages then no offence had been committed.

If any of this has been happening on Facebook/Twitter, the PCSOs clearly have no clue about how social media works.

Teen bullies who use that medium for their campaigns need to be dealt with swiftly and firmly re-educated.
If not they could end up like Keeley Houghton. 3 months inside. That was 7 years ago.

The other side of the coin is the story of Felix Alexander which culminated in tragedy a mere 7 months back.
Any parent whose child is having problems should read his mother's open letter. Blocking is a bandage not a remedy.

Schools and police need to get a grip and not play 'pass the parcel' because if they don't it will only escalate.
Early intervention is crucial. Waiting until it all goes south simply won't do.

[98elise]

Grunt Futtock said:

LordHaveMurci said:

Had an interesting chat with our neighbour earlier, 30yrs a copper, finished off his career in chil protection. He agrees with above comments & has suggested what our next steps should be.

School Deputy Head also rang, girl has been given a ONE day exclusion, that's right, 1 day!

School & PCSO are more interested in passing the buck onto each other than getting it dealt with, did get irate with her which really wasn't difficult.

I've worked in schools for nearly 10 years and seen this situation play out a lot. Couple of points:

Permanent Exclusions:

Very very rare, if at all possible problem students get sent on 'managed moves' to other schools (with the understanding that the school reciprocates with students from the receiving school). Managed moves have quite a high failure rate because the act of swapping schools rarely results in difficult students morphing into Hermione Grainger, this of course means the problem student returns to their original school.

I've only seen 2 perm exclusions in 10 years, 1 was because a student threw a vase at a teachers head (and hit them) and the teachers all refused to teach the student from that point onward. The 2nd was because a student brought a knife into school and had made threats against another student. The cost to schools of permanently excused students last time I checked was around £5k and a black mark on statistics especially if the student was in a Pupil Premium/ Looked After Child category.

Police involvement in bullying:

I've been told by more than one school police liaison officer that they are extremely reluctant to 'criminalize' young people, in reality the most you tend to see is the Police give words of advice or do home visits unless it's quite serious (note that the Police definition of serious might differ from a parents!).

All of that said if you keep the pressure on the school (Governors and Local Authority involvement if necessary) schools will try and pull out all the stops to help.

Are there any effects on a school if parents pull their kids out due to bullying? We were at that point when the school started to act.