Difficult to present the safety argument here I feel.

[Devil2575]

Digby said:

Maybe because people like yourself think that by some miracle, an industry with evidence of corruption, hidden and fabricated stats etc and covert and quite openly suggested tales of it being about money and targets, is the only industry in the world where everyone is completely honest and has our safety at heart.

No one has ever tried to suggest anything of the sort.

[Fozziebear]

Unbusy said:

A few nights ago I ventured in for a social late in the evening. The A52 was closed due to road works.
The detour took me on an unfamiliar route with a section of a wide two lane road similar to a duel carriageway with almost no traffic.
Speed limits changed from 40 to 30 and caught me out.
I was surprised at the large number of cameras there.
Just hoping no brown envelopes drop on my mat.

The A6097 has cameras from Gunthorpe bridge to the A1, 40/50 mph all the way. They dropped the 60 overnight, one stretch of DC makes no sense.

[carinaman]

It's a money making scam:

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguso...

News this morning that Councils are to remove speed humps as vehicles slowing down for them and then accelerating away cause air pollution that kills us.

I think most cars are cleaner than they've ever been.

Emmission Test cheating VAG products? Isn't some of that the fault of noddy emmissions tests? Does the 2.3 V5 petrol and 1.8T that originally came in 150, 180 and 225 bhp flavours have a secondary air pump that pumps clean air into their exhaust manifolds so the tailpipe emmissions is clean enough to pass the tests?

So car pollution is cited as being the most polluting and that will helpfully be used by Councils to justify 20MPH limits. 20MPH limits that will then be used to extract money from the wallets of motorists.

Radio 4 News mentioned Nottingham Council. Aren't the Council and Police there in a Common Purpose mutual love in, just like the Council and Police in Rotherham that covered up industrial scale child sex abuse? Haven't Nottingham had an anti car agenda for a while?

Didn't Nottingham police fail to prosecute a motorist that ran over an old lady in her eighties a few months ago? The police failed to prosecute the motorist in time and there's nothing that can be done?

Using pollution to jutify lower limits that will then be used to levy money from motorists isn't very different from Theresa May's Home Office roping in the Dept of Education to target putting the children of illegal immigrants at the bottom of the school entry lists to achieve an objective is it?

The police are losing respect? Perhaps that's something to do with them enforcing noddy laws that are mostly about making money?

Edited by carinaman on Thursday 1st December 07:43

[cmaguire]

Red Devil said:

To be clear, I don't have any problem with the concept of limits nor with enforcement per se. The acceptability of exceeding them in any circumstances is not the issue either AFAIAC. What gets me exercised is the actual figures that are chosen for placement within the red ring, the basis of their selection, and where they are applied.

Other examples in addition to the one I mentioned previously: extending 30 limits well beyond the end of towns and villages for little or no discernible reason and reducing NSL roads to 40 and 50 limits due to ideology and/or vocal campaigning by single interest pressure groups rather than on objective criteria. Legislating as a result of extreme events often caused by either basic incompetence and/or the few who will drive to wild excess irrespective of whatever number is displayed on the pole is not the answer.

We need the political will to invest in education and raising competence levels rather than rolling out yet more policing by robotics. Donkeys respond far better to carrots than sticks. I bet that many local authority decision makers nowadays have never heard of J J Leeming.

John Leeming argues that the whole effect of our present motoring laws and the propaganda to which we are all subjected is to concentrate attention on punishing the motorist rather than on discovering what causes accidents.

The book about which those words were written was published nearly 50 years ago. It is utterly depressing that we are still being subjected by TPTB to the same old tune from the same old tired back catalogue .

We are broadly in agreement, you are just more inclined to invest your time into generating input that might get a response, even if it still won't make a difference. This runaway train isn't stopping for Denzel or anyone else.

[Rovinghawk]

vonhosen said:

SACs ............ have in the main diverted people who would have otherwise have received a lower end FPN (Fine & points).

They have in the main diverted money from central government coffers to SCP coffers. This is of course not corrupt in the slightest and motivated purely by the wish to improve safety & save kittens.

[fangio]

Ah, the penny's just dropped! Von is AI....

Edited by fangio on Thursday 1st December 11:09

[fangio]

cmaguire said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Not sure where you are coming from on this.
Are you suggesting there should not be speed limits, or that they should not be enforced, or maybe that cameras should not be used to enforce, or at least penalise transgressors of the speed limits?

I would go with 30 in urban areas and no limits anywhere else if I got to choose.
But as I don't, with the current scenario getting rid of all the cameras would do.
Can't have that either?
In that case how about they ease off where it really doesn't matter much (on the Motorways and Dual Carriageways where it's just a numbers game) and find something more useful to do instead.

You should have been born when I was! Only limits were 30 where there were street lights. Driven at 120 in cars with drum brakes, no servos, no pas, no heater or demister. Even drove 8-leggers where you had to stand up to pull the steering wheel with both hands in order to negotiate roundabouts! Yet there are still millions of us oldsters around. Probably because there used to be people called 'Traffic Policemen' everywhere, who would have a quiet word in your shell-like if your driving wasn't up to scratch.

Then they built more motorways and things went rapidly downhill on the rest of the roads!

Come on, you goody goodies; bring on the statistics, the roads weren't as busy etc. etc.

Edited by fangio on Thursday 1st December 11:13

[drf765]

fangio said:

cmaguire said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Not sure where you are coming from on this.
Are you suggesting there should not be speed limits, or that they should not be enforced, or maybe that cameras should not be used to enforce, or at least penalise transgressors of the speed limits?

I would go with 30 in urban areas and no limits anywhere else if I got to choose.
But as I don't, with the current scenario getting rid of all the cameras would do.
Can't have that either?
In that case how about they ease off where it really doesn't matter much (on the Motorways and Dual Carriageways where it's just a numbers game) and find something more useful to do instead.

You should have been born when I was! Only limits were 30 where there were street lights. Driven at 120 in cars with drum brakes, no servos, no pas, no heater or demister. Even drove 8-leggers where you had to stand up to pull the steering wheel with both hands in order to negotiate roundabouts! Yet there are still millions of us oldsters around. Probably because there used to be people called 'Traffic Policemen' everywhere, who would have a quiet word in your shell-like if your driving wasn't up to scratch.

Then they built more motorways and things went rapidly downhill on the rest of the roads!

Come on, you goody goodies; bring on the statistics, the roads weren't as busy etc. etc.

Edited by fangio on Thursday 1st December 11:13

Yes, bring back the good old days when you were charging about those uncongested roads with your friendly police slapping you on the back.



Why not?

[Red Devil]

cmaguire said:

We are broadly in agreement, you are just more inclined to invest your time into generating input that might get a response, even if it still won't make a difference. This runaway train isn't stopping for Denzel or anyone else.

If the driver in the cab has jumped off or is incapacitated/dead we need a signalman to divert it into a refuge siding sand trap rather than wait until it hits the buffers at the terminus. If the signalman is dozing on the job somebody has to wake him up using whatever means are available to them. Some will have louder voices/klaxons than others.

Nobody listened to Winston Churchill in the 20s and 30s and we all know how that turned out. Everywhere you look nowadays there is evidence of the ostrich defeatist attitude of so many of this country's citizens. All they want is to be fed platitudes and reassurances so that they can concentrate their energies on the acquisition of the next big ticket consumer item. The country is sleepwalking by small increments yet at an accelerating rate into a dystopian future. This thread is just symptomatic of a far bigger problem.

[vonhosen]

Rovinghawk said:

vonhosen said:

SACs ............ have in the main diverted people who would have otherwise have received a lower end FPN (Fine & points).

They have in the main diverted money from central government coffers to SCP coffers. This is of course not corrupt in the slightest and motivated purely by the wish to improve safety & save kittens.

The government's choice to provide education rather than give points & a fine for what used to be low level FPNs.
The government's choice that they want those who have offended to pay directly for that rather than it go to the government & them pay for it creating an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy & cost.

[Devil2575]

fangio said:

You should have been born when I was! Only limits were 30 where there were street lights. Driven at 120 in cars with drum brakes, no servos, no pas, no heater or demister. Even drove 8-leggers where you had to stand up to pull the steering wheel with both hands in order to negotiate roundabouts! Yet there are still millions of us oldsters around. Probably because there used to be people called 'Traffic Policemen' everywhere, who would have a quiet word in your shell-like if your driving wasn't up to scratch.

Then they built more motorways and things went rapidly downhill on the rest of the roads!

Come on, you goody goodies; bring on the statistics, the roads weren't as busy etc. etc.

Edited by fangio on Thursday 1st December 11:13

I really don't know what your point is. Despite the roads being a lot less busy far more people were killed than today.

[Devil2575]

Red Devil said:

The country is sleepwalking by small increments yet at an accelerating rate into a dystopian future. This thread is just symptomatic of a far bigger problem.

we are heading for a big problem but not the one you think. We are currently heading down the path of repeating the 1930s, which funnily enough was also off the back of a economic depression.

belief that we are heading into a dystopian future is actually part of the problem as it is making voters do crazy things at the ballot box.

[fangio]

Devil2575 said:

I really don't know what your point is. Despite the roads being a lot less busy far more people were killed than today.

No point as such, just a reply to cmaguire but I knew some goody-goody would chime in, hence my last remark. drf765 obliged very nicely....
Unnecessary, but fun!

Edited by fangio on Thursday 1st December 19:51

[Devil2575]

fangio said:

No point as such, just a reply to cmaguire but I knew some goody-goody would chime in, hence my last remark.
Unnecessary, but fun!

By goody-goody you mean someone who likes to base arguments on facts?

Mind you we are living in a post fact world where what matters most is not whether you can back your argument up with facts, it's how loud you shout.

[fangio]

Devil2575 said:

Red Devil said:

The country is sleepwalking by small increments yet at an accelerating rate into a dystopian future. This thread is just symptomatic of a far bigger problem.

we are heading for a big problem but not the one you think. We are currently heading down the path of repeating the 1930s, which funnily enough was also off the back of a economic depression.

belief that we are heading into a dystopian future is actually part of the problem as it is making voters do crazy things at the ballot box.

What recession??? More like utopian.... Be ye a remoaner?

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

Rovinghawk said:

vonhosen said:

SACs ............ have in the main diverted people who would have otherwise have received a lower end FPN (Fine & points).

They have in the main diverted money from central government coffers to SCP coffers. This is of course not corrupt in the slightest and motivated purely by the wish to improve safety & save kittens.

The government's choice to provide education rather than give points & a fine for what used to be low level FPNs.
The government's choice that they want those who have offended to pay directly for that rather than it go to the government & them pay for it creating an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy & cost.

Make the course part of the driving test. Why close the stable door.....?

Better still, put up those road signs that flash up your speed or show a smiling / frowning face. Apparently they slow people down better than speed cameras iirc.

Why are there so few of those? (No real need to answer as I know why)

[Devil2575]

fangio said:

What recession??? More like utopian.... Be ye a remoaner?

I voted to remain yes. What recession? Did you miss it? Big thing that happened in 2007/8.

Utopian? Leaving Europe? Yeah right. Maybe for people of a right wing libertarian disposition but not for anyone else. A certain section of society may have been convinced that voting out was good for them but they just fell for one of the oldest political tricks in history.

Hitler was elected and I'm sure that at the time many people regarded that as a Utopia. I'm not sure many did by 1945.

[Devil2575]

Digby said:

Why are there so few of those? (No real need to answer as I know why)

There are plenty of them where I live. 2 within half a mile of my house in fact and I could list another half dozen in a 5 mile radius.

Oh and no static speed cameras, although my wife did get caught by a mobile one the other day.

[Digby]

Devil2575 said:

Digby said:

Why are there so few of those? (No real need to answer as I know why)

There are plenty of them where I live. 2 within half a mile of my house in fact and I could list another half dozen in a 5 mile radius.

Oh and no static speed cameras, although my wife did get caught by a mobile one the other day.

Right, so obvioulsy they work where money / targets are not a priority or even if they are not a priority, they still work.

So, why are they not all over the place?

Then again, perhaps the largest provider of cameras selling them as making "buckets of cash" and "so much money, you won't know what to do with it" and the calssic "Blank cheque books" simply hasn't had their salesman visit your area yet.

[Digby]

Devil2575 said:

There are plenty of them where I live. 2 within half a mile of my house in fact and I could list another half dozen in a 5 mile radius.

"Plenty", huh?

What does that make this?