Council paying for car damage?

[Murph7355]

Does anyone have experience of getting a council to pay for damage caused by a pothole?

Managed to buckle a wheel by hitting one. Pothole was on the road edge in the carriageway - car coming in the opposite direction prevented me avoiding it and was on top of it before I saw it fully. All within speed limits etc (the hole wasn't far from a junction).

AA recovered the car. I had the wheel looked at but unable to be repaired. New wheel and tyre over £1k.

Complete the claim form on the council site (Essex) after reading all their blurb. Response came back with a rejection but was unclear why. Asked for clarification and received the following:

"A claim for damages must prove that the highway was in such condition that it was dangerous and (their underlining) that the dangerous condition was created by the failure to maintain the highway.

The highways act provides that it is a defence to prove that it has taken reasonable steps to ensure the highway was not dangerous and has been maintained to a reasonable standard"

They go on to note that they routinely inspected the road twice this year before my incident and deemed it not dangerous. They've inspected it following my incident and decided the same. They've noted that they risk assess based on likeihoods etc.

My view is

1. They knew about the issue with the road
2. In their inspector's opinion it wasn't dangerous so they didn't repair it
3. That it was bad enough to buckle the wheel on my car, causing the tyre to immediately deflate, proves that the hole was dangerous and that their risk assessment was therefore flawed. Made more so by this being a country lane with ditches etc to one side and a narrow enough width not to give avoidance room. As they were plainly wrong on their risk assessment, I don't believe they did "take reasonable steps to ensure the highway was not dangerous". It clearly was.
4. They elected not to repair the carriageway. So they categorically did not "maintain it to a reasonable standard".

Any views?

There is no option to challenge their decision internally. The next step is to take them to court over it. As things stand I'm very prepared to do this - their assessments are evidently flawed which leaves significant risk for road users (and I'm significantly out of pocket!).

Has anyone won a damage claim like this? And is my reasoning flawed?

[Jonno02]

Did you photograph the pothole at the time of damage?

[Murph7355]

Jonno02 said:

Did you photograph the pothole at the time of damage?

Yes. Won't be winning photographer of the year with it, and had nothing to give scale unfortunately. It was about as deep as a Galaxy S5, so circa 6in.

[dci]

TooMany2cvs said:

If you did the INSIDE of the rim on that, I'm more surprised you didn't take the wing off on the shrubbery... How far's that from where the white edge line should be? 100mm? What's your rim and tyre widths?

I don't give the first flying fkerigar if you were "inside the speed limit" - crap cop-out. That's an NSL back lane that clearly isn't wide enough for two cars to pass. If you and the other guy were both "inside the speed limit", that could have been a closing speed of 119mph... Any chance of a streetview link? No, thought not.

You really are an unpleasant person.

OP, good luck. If your local council are anything like mine they will have seen and heard it all by now. They will have a rigorous claims process in place that even if followed to the letter they will still find a clause or technicality which leaves you on your own.

Just next time slow down a tad and let the oncoming car pass you first.

[TooMany2cvs]

dci said:

You really are an unpleasant person.

Look at that wheel. Look at that road.

[Murph7355]

TooMany2cvs said:

If you did the INSIDE of the rim on that, I'm more surprised you didn't take the wing off on the shrubbery... How far's that from where the white edge line should be? 100mm? What's your rim and tyre widths?

I don't give the first flying fkerigar if you were "inside the speed limit" - crap cop-out. That's an NSL back lane that clearly isn't wide enough for two cars to pass. If you and the other guy were both "inside the speed limit", that could have been a closing speed of 119mph... Any chance of a streetview link? No, thought not.

You don't inspect roads for Essex council do you?

Here you go Poirot.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8857122,0.437998...

I'm not sure how far the edge of the hole is from the white line as I didn't measure it. Bearing in mind the front of the hole is 6in deep I think it's more than 10cm. I may go back and measure it. Tyres are 245 section. I can assure you that the wing of the car is perfectly in tact and unmarked...so wherever you may think the shrubbery is, it wasn't touched.

The road's wide enough for two cars to readily pass without issue in good repair (I've used it before). The car coming the other way was a BMW 1-series. It was on his side of the road.

The speed limit's 40mph moving to NSL about where the pothole is. It's not a massive distance from a junction where you have to stop, and not on a road where I go quickly for myriad reasons. "Inside the speed limit" isn't a "cop out". The road was being used as intended. Best not to judge people by your own standards

Hope you sleep better tonight and wake up in a better frame of mind...

[Red Devil]

TooMany2cvs said:

If you did the INSIDE of the rim on that, I'm more surprised you didn't take the wing off on the shrubbery...

Piffle. The wheel/tyre would barely reach the grass verge in that pic. The shrubbery is even further away.

TooMany2cvs said:

How far's that from where the white edge line should be? 100mm?

Depends on where you take the measurement from as the ragged edge has a considerable taper.

TooMany2cvs said:

What's your rim and tyre widths?

9 spoke suggests its his Maserati - https://tiresize.com/tires/Maserati/GranTurismo/
Not sure on the wheels widths though. Extrapolating from the tyres I would guess 9.0J front 10.5J rear.

[TooMany2cvs]

Murph7355 said:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8857122,0.437998...

Looks more than wide enough for two cars to pass.

Murph7355 said:

I'm not sure how far the edge of the hole is from the white line as I didn't measure it. Bearing in mind the front of the hole is 6in deep I think it's more than 10cm. I may go back and measure it. Tyres are 245 section.

So at least half of the tyre was the other side of the white edge line, even though there was no real reason.

Murph7355 said:

The road's wide enough for two cars to readily pass without issue in good repair (I've used it before). The car coming the other way was a BMW 1-series. It was on his side of the road.

So htf did you manage to miss the nice wide tarmac bit so badly?

Murph7355 said:

Hope you sleep better tonight and wake up in a better frame of mind...

I'll sleep fine, ta. I'm not the one who fell off the road and is trying to blame somebody else.

[Murph7355]

TooMany2cvs said:

I'll sleep fine, ta. I'm not the one who fell off the road and is trying to blame somebody else.

I didn't fall off the road. That is the point. I fell into a pothole that is well into the carriageway and should not be IMO.

The council acknowledge that the road needs to be repaired. They have raised a ticket to do so, but noted it as "priority 3" so it must wait. A decision taken on a cost/risk assessment judgement. Had they fixed it, we wouldn't be having this conversation - something I think both of us would be much happier about

[TooMany2cvs]

Murph7355 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I'll sleep fine, ta. I'm not the one who fell off the road and is trying to blame somebody else.

I didn't fall off the road. That is the point. I fell into a pothole that is well into the carriageway

If you'd done the outside of the rim, perhaps. You didn't. You did the inside.

[Murph7355]

TooMany2cvs said:

Murph7355 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I'll sleep fine, ta. I'm not the one who fell off the road and is trying to blame somebody else.

I didn't fall off the road. That is the point. I fell into a pothole that is well into the carriageway

If you'd done the outside of the rim, perhaps. You didn't. You did the inside.

Which is still in the carriageway, no?

As noted, I have no idea exactly how wide the hole is from white line to the edge of it. If I get chance I'll go and measure it. I do tend to avoid straying outside of white lines on these roads - wheels are expensive after all. Maybe I didn't on this occasion. Passing other cars, moving an inch over etc may have occurred...but the hole that the wheel hit was on the carriageway definitively (from the photo).

[Yipper]

Assuming it is a genuine claim, you need to follow 3 steps. This could take months:

Step 1 = fast claim by council website (looks like you've done this);
Step 2 = full claim and road-repair history-check by council and freedom-of-info request (your next step);
Step 3 = small claims court (your final and last step).

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/pothole-cl...

[Murph7355]

Yipper said:

Assuming it is a genuine claim, you need to follow 3 steps. This could take months:

Step 1 = fast claim by council website (looks like you've done this);
Step 2 = full claim and road-repair history-check by council and freedom-of-info request (your next step);
Step 3 = small claims court (your final and last step).

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/pothole-cl...

It's genuine. I'd very much rather not have been sat on the road side for 2hrs getting recovered home, not have tried to get the wheel repaired and defintiely not have paid Maserati for a new wheel and Pirelli for a tyre (I hate Pirelli tyres).

Thank you for the link. I'll read it tomorrow and progress.

[sidekickdmr]

There is a helpful forum/advice site for exactly this senario:

http://www.potholes.co.uk/claims/how_to_claim

[tony wright]

TooMany2cvs said:

Murph7355 said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I'll sleep fine, ta. I'm not the one who fell off the road and is trying to blame somebody else.

I didn't fall off the road. That is the point. I fell into a pothole that is well into the carriageway

If you'd done the outside of the rim, perhaps. You didn't. You did the inside.

Can't understand your reasoning, surely looking at the photos the only possible damage to the wheel would be to the inside as it dropped into the pothole. Hope it goes well for you OP, I would be pretty peeved if I was in your shoes.

[dci]

TooMany2cvs said:

Look at that wheel. Look at that road.

Looks plausible to me with pictures provided. Heavy car, soft alloy and a 6" drop into a hole at speed can deform alloys.

Your response was completely unnecessary, your one of many who make the forum hard to use.

[KevinCamaroSS]

My problem is I cannot see a pothole in the photos, merely degradation to the edge of the road. For it to be a pothole it has to be fully within the area of the road surface.

[TooMany2cvs]

tony wright said:

Can't understand your reasoning, surely looking at the photos the only possible damage to the wheel would be to the inside as it dropped into the pothole. Hope it goes well for you OP, I would be pretty peeved if I was in your shoes.

If the tyre was completely inside the white line - otherwise known as "on the road" - it wouldn't have dropped off the edge. The inside edge only dropped off the edge of the tarmac because the outside edge of the tyre was WAY past the while line.

[kiethton]

I had this myself about 2 years ago and successfully claimed from the council

To aid your case the road depending on the type/use will be rated on a scale determining the time they have to fix it.

In my case I was able to use fix my street and another 2 (going by similar names) to see that the pothole I hit was reported over 2 years before and not fixed - quoted that evidence and they paid out in full (proportionate to the wear left on the tyre - even though 50% worn they paid out 80% of the cost as it was only 1 year old)

[Vaud]

My take (having grown up in the countryside) is that there is a reasonable expectation that the edges of country roads are not "motorway quality" - they often are eroded.

Sorry OP - I would be taking a pragmatic view in this case.