Speed Awareness Courses - Do they work?
Discussion
768 said:
Gavia said:
768 said:
Because training companies and those who benefit from them would never involve themselves in the shady politics that perpetuate their schemes? Seems unlikely.
I can't see your point. If you get caught speeding at a level that qualifies you for an SAC then you're paying c£100 anyway on an FPN. If they abolish SACs then you're down to accepting an FPN only. If they gave a toss, the predictable and required fund raising SAC's would be part of the driving test.
Much like the utterly laughable hazard perception test. Rather than having to pay for that tripe, you could spend five minutes on your test describing what you see. Job done.
Not much money in that, though.
Much like the utterly laughable hazard perception test. Rather than having to pay for that tripe, you could spend five minutes on your test describing what you see. Job done.
Not much money in that, though.
Digby said:
If they gave a toss, the predictable and required fund raising SAC's would be part of the driving test.
Much like the utterly laughable hazard perception test. Rather than having to pay for that tripe, you could spend five minutes on your test describing what you see. Job done.
Not much money in that, though.
Learner drivers already have a lot of learning material, they don't tend to exceed limits though (which is what SACs are addressing )Much like the utterly laughable hazard perception test. Rather than having to pay for that tripe, you could spend five minutes on your test describing what you see. Job done.
Not much money in that, though.
If it were about making money then they might make all learners do an SAC, but they don't.
vonhosen said:
(which is what SACs are addressing )
They are addressing the problem of how not to ban half the population due to massive pushes towards fining drivers for anything they can.They are no more effective than the great CPC HGV con and a huge percentage of other safety related training.
As for the driving test; paying someone so you can click a mouse in a classroom to show you are able to spot hazards on the road. You couldn't make this stuff up.
Oh, didn't click at the correct time even though you spotted the hazard? Never mind. Pay me again...
vonhosen said:
Red Devil said:
It's not the government that sets the limits now that the DfT have devolved that responsibility to local authorities.
Rightly or wrongly, many people see the proliferation of cameras (whether fixed or mobile) as an unholy alliance of interlinked vested interests.
The vast majority of motorists exceed the legal limit at some point. Most of those who get caught simply aren't savvy enough about when and where.
In my example (theft) the government make the laws that they receive fines from (which was the point being addressed, those making the law or setting the limit receiving the fine).Rightly or wrongly, many people see the proliferation of cameras (whether fixed or mobile) as an unholy alliance of interlinked vested interests.
The vast majority of motorists exceed the legal limit at some point. Most of those who get caught simply aren't savvy enough about when and where.
Secondly wrongly in my estimation. They are hardly prolific given how many miles of road we have & how many cameras we have operating at any one time covering a fraction of the network, then to further undermine any money making scheme intent claims they largely advertise where they are & sat navs etc will give you a good clue.
I didn't say prolific. That would suggest the process has spread further than is currently the case. Nevertheless it is a fact that coverage is increasing quite rapidly, especially on motorways. And on main routes in the TfL area.
I'm probably in the minority in that I don't have a sat nav. AFAIAC it is an unnecessary distraction. I normally know where I am going and what route to take before I begin my journey. Even with unexpected diversions I have yet to get lost. I use the mk1 eyeball to read the road. Not like some who appear to watching the sat nav display as if it's some sort of inbuilt vehicle guidance system.
vonhosen said:
I do agree however that the vast majority of motorists exceed the legal limit at some point & that those who get caught are simply not savvy enough about when & where. It being a fool that is easily parted with his money springs to mind.
vonhosen said:
It's up to the limit to provide demonstrative safety (as one of it's benefits) not the enforcement of it. The enforcement is a consequence of the limits existence.
You're referring to speed awareness courses as enforcing a limit? Interesting!If they don't improve safety, what's the point in giving all that money to the people running the courses? Just to obscure the numbers increasingly being caught?
768 said:
vonhosen said:
It's up to the limit to provide demonstrative safety (as one of it's benefits) not the enforcement of it. The enforcement is a consequence of the limits existence.
You're referring to speed awareness courses as enforcing a limit? Interesting!768 said:
Gavia said:
768 said:
Because training companies and those who benefit from them would never involve themselves in the shady politics that perpetuate their schemes? Seems unlikely.
I can't see your point. If you get caught speeding at a level that qualifies you for an SAC then you're paying c£100 anyway on an FPN. If they abolish SACs then you're down to accepting an FPN only. I'm happy with that scenario. I guess I'm not the sort to get upset at people making money though. I'm a capitalist and I work to make money, I don't begrudge anyone doing the same.
Gavia said:
This is not far off the most circular discussion possible. I don't see what's wrong with the system that you see as corrupt.
That's fine, we all have different viewpoints.Gavia said:
Until a few years ago, I had four strikes at low level speeding, then I would get banned. If I got caught then I got points and a fine, no discussion, no option just posts and a fine. Nowadays I get five strikes at low level speeding before getting banned and can avoid points, but still pay give or take exactly the same as the fine.
I'm happy with that scenario. I guess I'm not the sort to get upset at people making money though. I'm a capitalist and I work to make money, I don't begrudge anyone doing the same.
I'm a capitalist and I provide quantifiable value to make money. It's probably why I begrudge those who make money by working to rig a bad system. I'm happy with that scenario. I guess I'm not the sort to get upset at people making money though. I'm a capitalist and I work to make money, I don't begrudge anyone doing the same.
Digby said:
vonhosen said:
(which is what SACs are addressing )
They are addressing the problem of how not to ban half the population due to massive pushes towards fining drivers for anything they can.They are no more effective than the great CPC HGV con and a huge percentage of other safety related training.
As for the driving test; paying someone so you can click a mouse in a classroom to show you are able to spot hazards on the road. You couldn't make this stuff up.
Oh, didn't click at the correct time even though you spotted the hazard? Never mind. Pay me again...
There is good CPC & bad CPC, if people pay cheap for bad CPC because they don't want to spend the money on worthwhile CPC then they can hardly complain that they found it a waste of money.
It's developing hazards you should be clicking for not that you've spotted a hazard (after all virtually anything 'could' be a hazard), so you're doing it wrong.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 7th December 19:15
vonhosen said:
... so you're doing it wrong.
Exactly what they rely upon. Exactly why almost all of the instructors and examiners at a then local to me test centre failed their attempts at it, despite knowing what you suggest.Exactly why I was told "You are more likely to fail the longer you have driven" because you spot the developing hazards too quickly.
Five minutes in the car describing what you see vs PC monitors, some often dodgy video clips and perfectly timed mouse clicks. Why would anyone favour or defend the latter?
Maybe if someone could give me a single reason why clicking a mouse is better than explaining what you see whilst in a car, I would accept it.
vonhosen said:
SACs don't result in points/ban at all.
I know. I predicted they would need to do something due to the camera cancer to avoid banning so many people.vonhosen said:
There is good CPC & bad CPC, if people pay cheap for bad CPC because they don't want to spend the money on worthwhile CPC then they can hardly complain that they found it a waste of money.
Can you tell me where to book the good CPC? Our company pay for ours in over 600 locations and a quick call to any of those members up and down the country will result in the same stories from almost anyone.Having had to attend courses with other companies present, their tales were the same, too.
It's not the content etc, it's the fact you will find most instructors agree it is pointless and many are only doing the job because they were so sick of driving.
You have to remember, you are being "taught" the very things you know already. If you didn't know them, you wouldn't be able to do the job.
Edited by Digby on Wednesday 7th December 19:38
Digby said:
vonhosen said:
... so you're doing it wrong.
Exactly what they rely upon. Exactly why almost all of the instructors and examiners at a then local to me test centre failed their attempts at it, despite knowing what you suggest.Exactly why I was told "You are more likely to fail the longer you have driven" because you spot the developing hazards too quickly.
Five minutes in the car describing what you see vs PC monitors, some often dodgy video clips and perfectly timed mouse clicks. Why would anyone favour or defend the latter?
Maybe if someone could give me a single reason why clicking a mouse is better than explaining what you see whilst in a car, I would accept it.
Even experienced drivers can suffer when suddenly asked to do commentary driving under assessment conditions.
768 said:
Gavia said:
This is not far off the most circular discussion possible. I don't see what's wrong with the system that you see as corrupt.
That's fine, we all have different viewpoints.Gavia said:
Until a few years ago, I had four strikes at low level speeding, then I would get banned. If I got caught then I got points and a fine, no discussion, no option just posts and a fine. Nowadays I get five strikes at low level speeding before getting banned and can avoid points, but still pay give or take exactly the same as the fine.
I'm happy with that scenario. I guess I'm not the sort to get upset at people making money though. I'm a capitalist and I work to make money, I don't begrudge anyone doing the same.
I'm a capitalist and I provide quantifiable value to make money. It's probably why I begrudge those who make money by working to rig a bad system. I'm happy with that scenario. I guess I'm not the sort to get upset at people making money though. I'm a capitalist and I work to make money, I don't begrudge anyone doing the same.
Digby said:
Can you tell me where to book the good CPC? Our company pay for ours in over 600 locations and a quick call to any of those members up and down the country will result in the same stories from almost anyone.
Having had to attend courses with other companies present, their tales were the same, too.
It's not the content etc, it's the fact you will find most instructors agree it is pointless and many are only doing the job because they were so sick of driving.
You have to remember, you are being "taught" the very things you know already. If you didn't know them, you wouldn't be able to do the job.
You mean like you've nothing to learn from any advanced driving because you already know it as you already hold a licence to drive?Having had to attend courses with other companies present, their tales were the same, too.
It's not the content etc, it's the fact you will find most instructors agree it is pointless and many are only doing the job because they were so sick of driving.
You have to remember, you are being "taught" the very things you know already. If you didn't know them, you wouldn't be able to do the job.
Edited by Digby on Wednesday 7th December 19:38
By your reckoning then there is no need for any further driver training as people who would be doing it already drive.
How much on road CPC do you book as a percentage of your CPC?
0%?
vonhosen said:
Because talking like that when driving is another obstacle/processing layer for a learner who already has a lot of plates to keep spinning.
Even experienced drivers can suffer when suddenly asked to do commentary driving under assessment conditions.
Do away with it, then.Even experienced drivers can suffer when suddenly asked to do commentary driving under assessment conditions.
An instructor / examiner will have a pretty good idea about how good you are at avoiding hazards, yes?
You learn nothing from a pc screen and mouse click. Nothing at all.
vonhosen said:
You mean like you've nothing to learn from any advanced driving because you already know it as you already hold a licence to drive?
By your reckoning then there is no need for any further driver training as people who would be doing it already drive.
But it's not about advanced driving. If only it were, huh? In fact, what a bloody good idea! But no, you are subjected to everything from the absolute basics of turning a wheel, to things which do not relate in any way, shape, or form to the job you do.By your reckoning then there is no need for any further driver training as people who would be doing it already drive.
And of course, you get the luxury of being able to do this five times every five years.
Most people you will ask who are honest about all this and who have this paid for by their company simply like the fact they get to doss in a classroom, get paid for it and eat some free lunch. For those with no choice but to pay, well, I bet they wish it were all about advancing what they know - but it's not. None of it is.
I have seen numerous examiners now and all of them want to get home as early as possible but have to now "be careful" due to random checks - but then you could cover everything in 30 mins rather than entire days, but you can't earn from that. It's the same on refresher courses, too.
"Stop asking questions and talking so much and we will all get out of here early" is often the order of the day.
Someone, somewhere, makes a fortune from all this rubbish and you just have to accept it.
vonhosen said:
How much on road CPC do you book as a percentage of your CPC?
0%?
No driving required. Perhaps that's reserved for the Platinum wheel turning edition? We have seperate people who come and assess.0%?
Like the fortunes they spent on having us taught how to save fuel by smoother driving etc.....in autmomatic vehicles.
You may aswell just throw a few millon down the drain.
Edited by Digby on Wednesday 7th December 20:32
Digby said:
vonhosen said:
You mean like you've nothing to learn from any advanced driving because you already know it as you already hold a licence to drive?
By your reckoning then there is no need for any further driver training as people who would be doing it already drive.
But it's not about advanced driving. If only it were, huh? In fact, what a bloody good idea! But no, you are subjected to everything from the absolute basics of turning a wheel, to things which do not relate in any way, shape, or form to the job you do.By your reckoning then there is no need for any further driver training as people who would be doing it already drive.
And of course, you get the luxury of being able to do this five times every five years.
Most people you will ask who are honest about all this and who have this paid for by their company simply like the fact they get to doss in a classroom, get paid for it and eat some free lunch. For those with no choice but to pay, well, I bet they wish it were all about advancing what they know - but it's not. None of it is.
I have seen numerous examiners now and all of them want to get home as early as possible but have to now "be careful" due to random checks - but then you could cover everything in 30 mins rather than entire days, but you can't earn from that. It's the same on refresher courses, too.
"Stop asking questions and talking so much and we will all get out of here early" is often the order of the day.
Someone, somewhere, makes a fortune from all this rubbish and you just have to accept it.
Then people book the tacho training (because it's cheaper) then complain.
vonhosen said:
That's what I am saying, there is on road worthwhile training available but it costs more per head than having 20 people in a classroom discussing tacho legislation.
Then people book the tacho training (because it's cheaper) then complain.
Surely you don't need more onroad training anyway? You can just click a mouse in a classroom as per the driving test.Then people book the tacho training (because it's cheaper) then complain.
Edited by Digby on Wednesday 7th December 22:03
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