Speed Awareness Courses - Do they work?

[Willy Nilly]

vonhosen said:

Willy Nilly said:

vonhosen said:

Of course it's up to you.
You get to choose the supplier & the course from all of them that are out there, pick one that fulfils your need.
Don't pick something that doesn't & then complain it doesn't.

So how does one go about selecting a good course for the CPC? There is no way to know if the course is any good.

Be honest for starters.
Reflect on where your knowledge is lacking & what skills you could improve on. (I very much don't the answer is zero)
Then look for suppliers/courses that address those needs.
Do some research.

What ever the courses are, I won't be doing it again. The job doesn't pay enough, the machines aren't comfy enough and it's over regulated. Arm oot.

[cmaguire]

Crackie said:

That is an obscene figure value per camera; I'd like to see a breakdown of how that figure is arrived at. I wonder how many noses are in the trough to get to that figure. ? I don't know the cost of the laser speed sensor but build cost for a high quality IP addressable camera will be well under $50 USD.

I live with a teacher. When they want to purchase things for school it's all done via approved suppliers. She complains that it is a complete scam as she could go on Amazon or go to Wilko and buy the same stuff for a fraction of the price. No different to drugs supplied to the NHS or Council contracts, they are all a complete rip-off.
The State is wasting our money hand-over-fist because they don't know the first thing about running a business. Unfortunately for us, plenty of their suppliers know only too well how to maximize profit.

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

You (your employer) get to choose the course & supplier.
Choose a supplier & course that suits your needs.
If you book courses that don't offer you development then that's your (your employer's) fault.
Value isn't just finding the cheapest course.
If you book the same course again & again, then that's your (your employer's) fault you aren't getting anything positive out of it.
It's an opportunity for your professional development, get something of use to you out of it.

Your above suggestions would no doubt be the same if you were telling me how to get more out of being trained regularly to use a knife and fork.

There has to come a point where it is utterly pointless to keep on telling people how to use a knife and fork.

I would suggest, as with driving, that's after you have passed the expensive test which shows you are capable of using a knife and fork.

If I can't use a knife and fork, I can't eat. If I can't do everything covered by a CPC and company training, I can't work.

So you believe that LGV/PCV drivers can't improve their driving/performance once they've passed a DVSA test?
The LGV/PCV DVSA test is a basic minimum competency standard to drive that class of vehicle on your own. It's nearer the start of learning than the end.
It's not a high standard, it's a basic minimum standard for vocational drivers.

Digby said:

I keep asking, but maybe you could suggest the absolute best modules which can teach me something related to my job? You will need to suggest five.

Once you have suggested five, you then need to suggest some more for the coming years; and then some more and some more and then more and yet more and even more..

Can you do that? I'm all ears.

It's not appropriate for me to recommend individual suppliers & their courses.
As I said, look at what your drivers need training on most and address it with suitable courses.
It's you that should know their needs & have the whole market to choose from.
If you think they know everything already & there is no development they could benefit from, think again.

[Crackie]

cmaguire said:

Crackie said:

That is an obscene figure value per camera; I'd like to see a breakdown of how that figure is arrived at. I wonder how many noses are in the trough to get to that figure. ? I don't know the cost of the laser speed sensor but build cost for a high quality IP addressable camera will be well under $50 USD.

I live with a teacher. When they want to purchase things for school it's all done via approved suppliers. She complains that it is a complete scam as she could go on Amazon or go to Wilko and buy the same stuff for a fraction of the price. No different to drugs supplied to the NHS or Council contracts, they are all a complete rip-off.
The State is wasting our money hand-over-fist because they don't know the first thing about running a business. Unfortunately for us, plenty of their suppliers know only too well how to maximize profit.

I live with a teacher too.........it makes me genuinely angry when I find out how much schools get charged for a new Smartboard, replacement bulb for the same or a new laptop. There are many leaches involved in the public services' supply chain.

[Mill Wheel]

yonex said:

Can we stop saying Safety Camera Partnership, if ever there was an oxymoron it's that! And agreed, once our draconian authorities have finished with one 'incident blackspot' (read an innocuous area between a 30 and 40 limit) they will probably focus on other areas to get their self perpetuating funds. Luckily we are still free to enjoy motorsport, the miserable bds can't take that away just yet

Any excuse to reduce limits... "S.M.A.R.T." Motorways, road workers protection and now pollution levels! All feed the Speed Awareness Course industry, because drivers cannot see the justification for the lower limits.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4145570/Ru...

Daily Mail said:

Rush hour speeding fines for cars going above 60mph on the M1 in an attempt to cut pollution levels
A new speed limit of 60mph could be introduced on part of the M1 near Sheffield
It would be the first pollution-linked speed limit imposed in the United Kingdom
Highways England is considering imposing the restriction due to air quality

The local MP however, is not impressed at the intended limits, perhaps recognising that some vehicles are more economical at higher speeds on motorways... especially on downhill sections!

[Red Devil]

JNW1 said:

Given their contribution to safety that would arguably be no bad thing but the SCP model is deliberately set-up to do the opposite; catch more speeders, fund more cameras, catch more speeders, fund more cameras, etc.

As this is supposed to be a forum for car enthusiasts I'll leave this analogy here.
It's a bit like a turbocharger without a wastegate.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like self-destructing any time soon...

I don't have an issue with enforcement per se. My gripe is with who sets what the figures should be and where.
It boils my urine that those who take the decisions are being unduly influenced by political and/or emotional dogma.
Not to mention the partisan and highly suspect manipulation of data/statistics in support thereof.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

As I said, look at what your drivers need training on most and address it with suitable courses.

Nothing. I can't think of a single thing. If I could think of anything they needed training for, they wouldn't be able to do the job they are currently doing.

Even less so given we have to think of five things, every few years, for life.

We are back to how many H&S courses do you really need to go on during your lifetime?

I must have sat through 20+ of them. All the same material, over and over again.

I will have to sit more, too.

You keep on making suggestions about suitable courses, but what are these suitable courses?

They need, by your own admission, to focus on areas drivers need training in. That would mean they are not completely competent in what they do, yes?

Well, they are. Now what?

vonhosen said:

So you believe that LGV/PCV drivers can't improve their driving/performance once they've passed a DVSA test?
The LGV/PCV DVSA test is a basic minimum competency standard to drive that class of vehicle on your own. It's nearer the start of learning than the end.
It's not a high standard, it's a basic minimum standard for vocational drivers.

Many companies do refresher courses anyway.

You will learn things probably until the day you die, but that doesn't mean you need to pay someone to gain experience.

Are you suggesting that CPC courses are actually better than the required "minimum competency" driving test?

Edited by Digby on Monday 23 January 20:49

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

Are you suggesting that CPC courses are actually better than the required "minimum competency" driving test?

I know some of them are a big step up on from it. Having a lot of experience of said courses I am referring to & also DVSA LGV/PCV tests. I am therefore in a good position to compare.

[Digby]

So given your vast experience, which areas should competent drivers, with many years of experience, often dozens of other H&S courses and in-house refresher courses be focusing on and paying for so they can keep the job they are good at?

If you are struggling to suggest five, perhaps just suggest one?

But then should the one you suggest be taken every few years? What happens if it's not?

[Devil2575]

yonex said:

Devil2575 said:

No you don't.

It's like Groundhog day on this forum.

Really, because it seems to me that if you are in, close to or otherwise engaged to the forces you seem to have the God given right to carpet other folks opinions?

I am not in, close to or otherwise engaged to the forces.

- Everyone has the right to challenge opinions where no evidence is presented to support them.

- If the only evidence you have is anecdotal personal experience then you don't have a strong case.

[Devil2575]

Crackie said:

Which biased viewpoint are you referring to ??

If, as you implied earlier, you think that improvements in driving standards are not a important or a priority, I suggest that you either pay more attention when you are on the road or make an appointment with Specsavers.

The fact that we have some of the safest roads is hardly relevant; further improvements should be our goal, surely ?

Edited by Crackie on Saturday 21st January 21:53

With all due respect,

The assertion that there is a problem with driving standards on UK roads is based on personal experience. There is no other evidence that anyone has been able to provide other than 'What they say they see' when driving.

I have a problem with this because not only are personal experiences subject to bias and interpretation, they are also entirely dependent on the human memory which research is now showing to be incredibly unreliable. So when someone says "I've been driving for 40 years and standards have got worse over that time" I'm incredibly skeptical.

[anonymous-user]

Devil2575 said:

I am not in, close to or otherwise engaged to the forces.

- Everyone has the right to challenge opinions where no evidence is presented to support them.

- If the only evidence you have is anecdotal personal experience then you don't have a strong case.

And what evidence are you giving against the two occasions where I attended, which is what I am basing my opinions on?

It seems I have a strong enough case to have an opinion.

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

So given your vast experience, which areas should competent drivers, with many years of experience, often dozens of other H&S courses and in-house refresher courses be focusing on and paying for so they can keep the job they are good at?

If you are struggling to suggest five, perhaps just suggest one?

But then should the one you suggest be taken every few years? What happens if it's not?

Some experienced road drivers take on road driving courses to update & improve their on road driving skills. They do this voluntarily again & again, because there is always room for improvement & more to learn/refine despite their experience. These drivers are often not the poorest drivers before they go on this training, but amongst the better drivers before they start. This is partly due to their attitude that they still have a lot to learn.

LGV/PCV drivers have to take compulsory courses for DCPC. Just like the experienced car drivers who voluntarily do improvement courses for the reasons above, the LGV/PCV drivers could do likewise & get DCPC for it.

Are you in favour of driver training?
Or is it that you consider that having passed a LGV/PCV DVSA test & driving the vehicle for a few years the driver's now know it all & can't improve?

[Devil2575]

yonex said:

Devil2575 said:

I am not in, close to or otherwise engaged to the forces.

- Everyone has the right to challenge opinions where no evidence is presented to support them.

- If the only evidence you have is anecdotal personal experience then you don't have a strong case.

And what evidence are you giving against the two occasions where I attended, which is what I am basing my opinions on?

It seems I have a strong enough case to have an opinion.

Sorry, my comments that you quoted previously were in reference to poor standards of driving in the UK, not directly related to an SAC.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

LGV/PCV drivers have to take compulsory courses for DCPC. Just like the experienced car drivers who voluntarily do improvement courses for the reasons above, the LGV/PCV drivers could do likewise & get DCPC for it.

Ok, let's look at this another way.

Tell me one thing as a car driver I can improve on / learn, that training will suddenly make me realise I had not been doing all these years and that I will quickly forget, regardless of refresher courses, so will need to be told it again and again and again over the coming years.

Are these "training" courses not the worst ever if people constantly forget?

Are driving tests not then the worst ever if once drivers have passed, they need years and years of training to be safe and capable?

vonhosen said:

Are you in favour of driver training?
Or is it that you consider that having passed a LGV/PCV DVSA test & driving the vehicle for a few years the driver's now know it all & can't improve?

I'm against being told how to pick a box up several hundred times and someone having to pay for that advice.

Edited by Digby on Tuesday 24th January 20:08

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

LGV/PCV drivers have to take compulsory courses for DCPC. Just like the experienced car drivers who voluntarily do improvement courses for the reasons above, the LGV/PCV drivers could do likewise & get DCPC for it.

Ok, let's look at this another way.

Tell me one thing as a car driver I can improve on / learn, that training will suddenly make me realise I had not been doing all these years and that I will quickly forget, regardless of refresher courses, so will need to be told it again and again and again over the coming years.

Are these "training" courses not the worst ever if people constantly forget?

Are driving tests not then the worst ever if once drivers have passed, they need years and years of training to be safe and capable?

vonhosen said:

Are you in favour of driver training?
Or is it that you consider that having passed a LGV/PCV DVSA test & driving the vehicle for a few years the driver's now know it all & can't improve?

I'm against being told how to pick a box up several hundred times and someone having to pay for that advice.

The diving test is a test of minimum competence to be allowed out on the roads on your own. There is still a lot to learn beyond what is tested in the test in order to be really accomplished.

If you are happy with minimum competence then so be it..
The government want drivers to keep working on their professional development throughout their careers. Once you stop learning you'll start deteriorating.
Andy Murray is already a pretty good tennis player, but he still wants to be better. He practices a lot & is coached despite his current skill level.
Many employers seek to develop their staff throughout their careers.

I was talking about driving, not box lifting.
Driving is a far more complex task with nuances.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

The diving test is a test of minimum competence to be allowed out on the roads on your own. There is still a lot to learn beyond what is tested in the test in order to be really accomplished.

Yes. Now the "real" learning begins etc. You gain experience. You are suggesting you can never gain enough to be legally allowed to do the job you passed a test for and so must once again pay someone else to remind you of the experience you have gained.

So can you or can you not name something I need to be doing as a driver that I have forgotten, or was unaware of after all these years and that I will also forget to do in the future regardless of training?

Can I also ask, after some form of uber-advanced driver training module, what would you pick next training wise? You have to pick something, or you lose your licence.

What would you pay for that you feel you need for example?

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

The diving test is a test of minimum competence to be allowed out on the roads on your own. There is still a lot to learn beyond what is tested in the test in order to be really accomplished.

Yes. Now the "real" learning begins etc. You gain experience. You are suggesting you can never gain enough to be legally allowed to do the job you passed a test for and so must once again pay someone else to remind you of the experience you have gained.

So can you or can you not name something I need to be doing as a driver that I have forgotten, or was unaware of after all these years and that I will also forget to do in the future regardless of training?

Can I also ask, after some form of uber-advanced driver training module, what would you pick next training wise? You have to pick something, or you lose your licence.

What would you pay for that you feel you need for example?

You have enough to legally do your job, but you have to keep developing to maintain it in the future. Part of being a professional.
Experience alone doesn't automatically mean it's all good experience. Time spent experience can lead to bad habit forming.

I don't know what you need, I don't know you. You should critically reflect your own performance & choose a course that addresses areas where your knowledge/performance is sub-optimal.

I've spent the majority of my driving life having training & learning about it, it's still going on.
I'm up to date with DCPC thanks.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

I've spent the majority of my driving life having training & learning about it, it's still going on.
I'm up to date with DCPC thanks.

Ok..
Tell me what you learned last time that you didn't have a clue about or had forgotten and then tell me what you will soon forget and need reminding of time and time again.

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

I've spent the majority of my driving life having training & learning about it, it's still going on.
I'm up to date with DCPC thanks.

Ok..
Tell me what you learned last time that you didn't have a clue about or had forgotten and then tell me what you will soon forget and need reminding of time and time again.

Last one was first aid updates. If you don't use a skill you lose a skill. A days first aid refresher every five years is no hardship & of value. In five year cycles I don't often get to use or perform CPR etc & it's easy to forget aspects of it because you aren't doing it all the time. Worthwhile because it will potentially benefit me in my private life as well as professional & any changes to best practice can passed on.