Speed Awareness Courses - Do they work?

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

If you don't use a skill you lose a skill.

But that's simply not true, is it?

It's something often rolled out by those who make money from training courses etc.

Riding a bike is a skill. Almost anyone can ignore cycling for 40+ years and get straight back on one and ride it perfectly.

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

If you don't use a skill you lose a skill.

But that's simply not true, is it?

It's something often rolled out by those who make money from training courses etc.

Riding a bike is a skill. Almost anyone can ignore cycling for 40+ years and get straight back on one and ride it perfectly.

I know I forget elements of first aid & I'm not very skilled in it because I've never been very practiced at it, not being exposed to it's use on a day to day basis. A refresher every 5 years is a sound investment & could be a life saver for a relatively small outlay.

I wouldn't pick riding a pedal cycle because it wouldn't be of value, but first aid would be.
Your whole argument appears to be about putting up straw men of little value rather than looking at what could potentially add value.
If you do that I'm not surprised you can't find anything of value because you aren't looking for it. Instead you are looking for reasons to avoid.
As you are required by law to complete the training that results in a waste of money for you instead of valuable professional & personal development.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

I know I forget elements of first aid & I'm not very skilled in it because I've never been very practiced at it, not being exposed to it's use on a day to day basis.

Now we are getting somewhere..


So, if you are trained in first aid, are exposed to it every day and had been so for years and years, five days a week, ten hours a day and had refresher courses, you would still feel the need to pay for training? And before you suggest something like "Yes, because there may be different techniques and drugs to use and advanced defibrillators and and....", remember we are talking turning a steering wheel to place a metal object where someone wants you to place it.

Which elements do you "forget" out of interest?

So, even though you don't know me, which five modules would you suggest I pay for to make me steer better and place that metal object in a far more professional manner?

So far, I haven't forgotten anything about how to do that, so I have no clue.

You can't teach perfection, you can't teach experience and once you know what you need to do to complete a task, why do you need to be told things you know over and over and over and over again?

Is this an industry you are involved in by any chance?

[Devil2575]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

If you don't use a skill you lose a skill.

But that's simply not true, is it?

It's something often rolled out by those who make money from training courses etc.

Riding a bike is a skill. Almost anyone can ignore cycling for 40+ years and get straight back on one and ride it perfectly.

Errrr...no.

As someone who got back on a bike 4 years ago after almost a 20 year break this is not the case. Yes you can ride but it takes time before you get good at it again.

[Mill Wheel]

Devil2575 said:

Errrr...no.

As someone who got back on a bike 4 years ago after almost a 20 year break this is not the case. Yes you can ride but it takes time before you get good at it again.

That is just YOU, recounting YOUR experience.

My experience was that I got back on a bike after a 30 year break, and the only thing that had changed had changed for the better - the position of the (now indexed) gear levers - now conveniently on the handlebars, instead of on the side of the frame, where you used to have to reach down and try to find the right position!

[PhilboSE]

Mill Wheel said:

Devil2575 said:

Errrr...no.

As someone who got back on a bike 4 years ago after almost a 20 year break this is not the case. Yes you can ride but it takes time before you get good at it again.

That is just YOU, recounting YOUR experience.

My experience was that I got back on a bike after a 30 year break, and the only thing that had changed had changed for the better - the position of the (now indexed) gear levers - now conveniently on the handlebars, instead of on the side of the frame, where you used to have to reach down and try to find the right position!

I'm with Devil on this, certainly in the case of riding a bike.

I rode a pushbike for nearly 10 years, first 7 miles to school and then at University - both in/through urban areas. I became a pretty proficient cyclist and could do things like ride relatively indefinitely no-handed.

After a 20 year cycling break, start doing it again with the kids and I'm not exactly falling off the thing but my competency is nowhere near where it was. Takes some time to get "dialled back in" and just get used to it again.

Skills atrophy and need further practice to be regained. If you can ride a bike with the same proficiency that you could after a 30 year break, then you weren't riding to a very high standard originally.

[jith]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

I know I forget elements of first aid & I'm not very skilled in it because I've never been very practiced at it, not being exposed to it's use on a day to day basis.

remember we are talking turning a steering wheel to place a metal object where someone wants you to place it.

Please tell me you are not serious about that remark; that it's just a joke in very bad taste.

J

[Mill Wheel]

PhilboSE said:

I'm with Devil on this, certainly in the case of riding a bike.

I rode a pushbike for nearly 10 years, first 7 miles to school and then at University - both in/through urban areas. I became a pretty proficient cyclist and could do things like ride relatively indefinitely no-handed.

After a 20 year cycling break, start doing it again with the kids and I'm not exactly falling off the thing but my competency is nowhere near where it was. Takes some time to get "dialled back in" and just get used to it again.

Skills atrophy and need further practice to be regained. If you can ride a bike with the same proficiency that you could after a 30 year break, then you weren't riding to a very high standard originally.

I used to commute to school in Portsmouth until I was 17, and as I pointed out had to deal with the gear change below your knees.
When I restarted riding in 2006, my only obstacle was fitness, which soon returned... I now cycle a rural A road with no real concerns.. it was like I had never given up.

I guess as Devil had already pointed out previously, you can only report your own experiences.
I give cyclists a lot more room than some drivers give me, but by the time you see them pass, they are past, so I don't worry about them being close. I might if they were coming towards me!

[Devil2575]

PhilboSE said:

Mill Wheel said:

Devil2575 said:

Errrr...no.

As someone who got back on a bike 4 years ago after almost a 20 year break this is not the case. Yes you can ride but it takes time before you get good at it again.

That is just YOU, recounting YOUR experience.

My experience was that I got back on a bike after a 30 year break, and the only thing that had changed had changed for the better - the position of the (now indexed) gear levers - now conveniently on the handlebars, instead of on the side of the frame, where you used to have to reach down and try to find the right position!

I'm with Devil on this, certainly in the case of riding a bike.

I rode a pushbike for nearly 10 years, first 7 miles to school and then at University - both in/through urban areas. I became a pretty proficient cyclist and could do things like ride relatively indefinitely no-handed.

After a 20 year cycling break, start doing it again with the kids and I'm not exactly falling off the thing but my competency is nowhere near where it was. Takes some time to get "dialled back in" and just get used to it again.

Skills atrophy and need further practice to be regained. If you can ride a bike with the same proficiency that you could after a 30 year break, then you weren't riding to a very high standard originally.

Exactly.

I could still ride, but it took some time to get back to the standard I was at before. There are lots of little things that you forget, like just how little grip you have when you ride over a wet metal manhole cover

[Mill Wheel]

Devil2575 said:

Exactly.

I could still ride, but it took some time to get back to the standard I was at before. There are lots of little things that you forget, like just how little grip you have when you ride over a wet metal manhole cover

But wet manhole covers cause loss of grip on any vehicle - it shouldn't come as a surprise just because you have not ridden for some time!

Edited by Mill Wheel on Wednesday 25th January 11:38

[Devil2575]

Mill Wheel said:

But wet manhole covers cause loss of grip on ant vehicle - it shouldn't come as a surprise just because you have not ridden for some time!

Trust me, it has far less effect in a car than it does on a bike.

[Mill Wheel]

Devil2575 said:

Mill Wheel said:

But wet manhole covers cause loss of grip on ant vehicle - it shouldn't come as a surprise just because you have not ridden for some time!

Trust me, it has far less effect in a car than it does on a bike.

Only because it is difficult to get 50% of your wheels on one at the same time.

However there is a railway crossing near me that is set within metal plates across the road, and it is every bit as dangerous should you touch the brakes while driving across it in the wet... more so if you apply some steering input at the same time!

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

I know I forget elements of first aid & I'm not very skilled in it because I've never been very practiced at it, not being exposed to it's use on a day to day basis.

Now we are getting somewhere..


So, if you are trained in first aid, are exposed to it every day and had been so for years and years, five days a week, ten hours a day and had refresher courses, you would still feel the need to pay for training? And before you suggest something like "Yes, because there may be different techniques and drugs to use and advanced defibrillators and and....", remember we are talking turning a steering wheel to place a metal object where someone wants you to place it.

Which elements do you "forget" out of interest?

So, even though you don't know me, which five modules would you suggest I pay for to make me steer better and place that metal object in a far more professional manner?

So far, I haven't forgotten anything about how to do that, so I have no clue.

You can't teach perfection, you can't teach experience and once you know what you need to do to complete a task, why do you need to be told things you know over and over and over and over again?

Is this an industry you are involved in by any chance?

If that were true why would so many experienced drivers still be involved in collisions?
They've been doing it every day after all.
It's always going to be more than simply turning a wheel, because it's an extremely complex activity with a multitude of facets that need to gel seamlessly in order to do well. With it all being carried out in a volatile environment.
The trouble is you don't know what you don't know. You don't even know it exists until you've experienced it.
The best are always searching for new ways in order to get an edge over the rest. They don't think they know it all when the reality is they've barely scratched the surface.

We are going to just go around in circles. If you are happy with the current situation to continue, carry on doing what you are doing (here's a clue you obviously aren't happy with the current situation). If you aren't happy, the only way it is going to get better is for you to change it. Seeing as you can't change the legislation you need to change what you can change. i.e the training you are selecting to do. Otherwise feel free to commit yourself to misery & bhing instead of making a good fist at getting the best that is available for your personal development.
Your choice.

[cmaguire]

vonhosen said:

If that were true why would so many experienced drivers still be involved in collisions?
They've been doing it every day after all.
It's always going to be more than simply turning a wheel, because it's an extremely complex activity with a multitude of facets that need to gel seamlessly in order to do well. With it all being carried out in a volatile environment.
The trouble is you don't know what you don't know. You don't even know it exists until you've experienced it.
The best are always searching for new ways in order to get an edge over the rest. They don't think they know it all when the reality is they've barely scratched the surface.

We are going to just go around in circles. If you are happy with the current situation to continue, carry on doing what you are doing (here's a clue you obviously aren't happy with the current situation). If you aren't happy, the only way it is going to get better is for you to change it. Seeing as you can't change the legislation you need to change what you can change. i.e the training you are selecting to do. Otherwise feel free to commit yourself to misery & bhing instead of making a good fist at getting the best that is available for your personal development.
Your choice.

If all this is so necessary and useful, why does your enthusiasm not carry over into applying the same ongoing monitoring of car drivers etc? In my experience the greatest difference in driving standards exists between those that drive for work and those that do not. Your debate with Digby centres around road users that likely operate at a far higher level than your average car driver (who is incompetent in my opinion) yet those car drivers are under virtually no scrutiny.
I suspect that if the law dictated that all car drivers were subject to a similar scheme you would be as equally enthusiastic about the virtues of that too. But until the law does...hey ho, no need to justify anything.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

If that were true why would so many experienced drivers still be involved in collisions?
They've been doing it every day after all.
It's always going to be more than simply turning a wheel, because it's an extremely complex activity with a multitude of facets that need to gel seamlessly in order to do well. With it all being carried out in a volatile environment.
The trouble is you don't know what you don't know. You don't even know it exists until you've experienced it.
The best are always searching for new ways in order to get an edge over the rest. They don't think they know it all when the reality is they've barely scratched the surface.

We are going to just go around in circles. If you are happy with the current situation to continue, carry on doing what you are doing (here's a clue you obviously aren't happy with the current situation). If you aren't happy, the only way it is going to get better is for you to change it. Seeing as you can't change the legislation you need to change what you can change. i.e the training you are selecting to do. Otherwise feel free to commit yourself to misery & bhing instead of making a good fist at getting the best that is available for your personal development.
Your choice.

So it's the 'ignore pretty much everything I asked' route. Got it.

You certainly don't know what you don't know, but you almost certainly will know everything covered in a CPC course...each and every time you are forced to sit one over and over and over and over and over again. If you didn't you wouldn't be able do the job which has put you in that classroom in the first place. As you are well aware, my turning a wheel comment simply means that's what you do, day in, day out. This isn't genome sequencing!

And regarding collisions, we are human.

How is it those who go on the types of courses you suggest (even though we don't know what they are) can still be involved in collisions?

Are the courses you are trying to suggest rather crap?

The only reason we are going round in circles is because firstly you are trying to justify something seen not only by most of those forced to take it, but also by those instructing on it, as a money making farce (hence you can sit the same modules every time - the money is in, so do what you like and still keep legal, chaps) and also because there is no alternative once a few of your undisclosed gold plated versions have been approached.

Then what? What do we pay for next over and over and over again?

[vonhosen]

cmaguire said:

vonhosen said:

If that were true why would so many experienced drivers still be involved in collisions?
They've been doing it every day after all.
It's always going to be more than simply turning a wheel, because it's an extremely complex activity with a multitude of facets that need to gel seamlessly in order to do well. With it all being carried out in a volatile environment.
The trouble is you don't know what you don't know. You don't even know it exists until you've experienced it.
The best are always searching for new ways in order to get an edge over the rest. They don't think they know it all when the reality is they've barely scratched the surface.

We are going to just go around in circles. If you are happy with the current situation to continue, carry on doing what you are doing (here's a clue you obviously aren't happy with the current situation). If you aren't happy, the only way it is going to get better is for you to change it. Seeing as you can't change the legislation you need to change what you can change. i.e the training you are selecting to do. Otherwise feel free to commit yourself to misery & bhing instead of making a good fist at getting the best that is available for your personal development.
Your choice.

If all this is so necessary and useful, why does your enthusiasm not carry over into applying the same ongoing monitoring of car drivers etc? In my experience the greatest difference in driving standards exists between those that drive for work and those that do not. Your debate with Digby centres around road users that likely operate at a far higher level than your average car driver (who is incompetent in my opinion) yet those car drivers are under virtually no scrutiny.
I suspect that if the law dictated that all car drivers were subject to a similar scheme you would be as equally enthusiastic about the virtues of that too. But until the law does...hey ho, no need to justify anything.

I'm not against training for social car drivers, I believe it's a good thing for social drivers to receive further training.
However I don't believe that compulsory training will be popular move with social drivers & that would cause a problem for the government if they try to implement it.
It's easier for the government to impose on professional drivers & legislation (where the vehicle is a tool for work) imposes legal obligations on employers to provide training, which doesn't exist for social users.
Also for those that it is a work tool have greater exposure due to time & mileage on the roads.

[Digby]

jith said:

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

I know I forget elements of first aid & I'm not very skilled in it because I've never been very practiced at it, not being exposed to it's use on a day to day basis.

remember we are talking turning a steering wheel to place a metal object where someone wants you to place it.

Please tell me you are not serious about that remark; that it's just a joke in very bad taste.

J

I thought the same. I mean, how can you "forget" first aid?!

[vonhosen]

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

If that were true why would so many experienced drivers still be involved in collisions?
They've been doing it every day after all.
It's always going to be more than simply turning a wheel, because it's an extremely complex activity with a multitude of facets that need to gel seamlessly in order to do well. With it all being carried out in a volatile environment.
The trouble is you don't know what you don't know. You don't even know it exists until you've experienced it.
The best are always searching for new ways in order to get an edge over the rest. They don't think they know it all when the reality is they've barely scratched the surface.

We are going to just go around in circles. If you are happy with the current situation to continue, carry on doing what you are doing (here's a clue you obviously aren't happy with the current situation). If you aren't happy, the only way it is going to get better is for you to change it. Seeing as you can't change the legislation you need to change what you can change. i.e the training you are selecting to do. Otherwise feel free to commit yourself to misery & bhing instead of making a good fist at getting the best that is available for your personal development.
Your choice.

So it's the 'ignore pretty much everything I asked' route. Got it.

You certainly don't know what you don't know, but you almost certainly will know everything covered in a CPC course...each and every time you are forced to sit one over and over and over and over and over again. If you didn't you wouldn't be able do the job which has put you in that classroom in the first place. As you are well aware, my turning a wheel comment simply means that's what you do, day in, day out. This isn't genome sequencing!

And regarding collisions, we are human.

How is it those who go on the types of courses you suggest (even though we don't know what they are) can still be involved in collisions?

Are the courses you are trying to suggest rather crap?

The only reason we are going round in circles is because firstly you are trying to justify something seen not only by most of those forced to take it, but also by those instructing on it, as a money making farce (hence you can sit the same modules every time - the money is in, so do what you like and still keep legal, chaps) and also because there is no alternative once a few of your undisclosed gold plated versions have been approached.

Then what? What do we pay for next over and over and over again?

You have used every provider have you?
Or completed every available DCPC course?
The (driving) courses I'm talking about provide healthy collision reductions in large fleets.

As I said if you want to keep paying for training that doesn't offer value & bhing (instead of investigating value), knock yourself out.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 25th January 19:16

[Digby]

Devil2575 said:

Digby said:

vonhosen said:

If you don't use a skill you lose a skill.

But that's simply not true, is it?

It's something often rolled out by those who make money from training courses etc.

Riding a bike is a skill. Almost anyone can ignore cycling for 40+ years and get straight back on one and ride it perfectly.

Errrr...no.

As someone who got back on a bike 4 years ago after almost a 20 year break this is not the case. Yes you can ride but it takes time before you get good at it again.

Good at which part? Wall of death etc? BMX jumps? You will be able to balance and ride almost always within seconds.

But feel free to name me the plethora of skills we as humans apparently lose after a short period of time. I'm struggling to think of any.

And let's also not forget, regarding your cycling comment, (bearing in mind riders often suggest they never need training), how would you feel if you had ridden for twenty years or more, every single day, in all types of environments, had passed and paid for a test to be allowed to do this, were forced to have refresher courses by your company to be allowed to ride to work and then a new law was introduced which forced you to pay hundreds or thousands of pounds every few years which told you how to pedal, steer and balance etc otherwise you would never be allowed to ride again?

You would then have to sit these courses for the rest of your life and pay for them. Sound like a good deal?

Edited by Digby on Wednesday 25th January 19:47

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

You have used every provider have you?
Or completed every available DCPC course?
The (driving) courses I'm talking about provide healthy collision reductions in large fleets.

As I said if you want to keep paying for training that doesn't offer value & bhing (instead of investigating value), knock yourself out.

So I pick the absolute best five courses from the absolute best five providers. What do I do next? Do the same ones again over and over because all the others are pointless?