Mobile Phone Mast - Rent
Discussion
Already have experience of a rent situation on a mast at work - 25 year lease - quarterly rent - between £4/5k per annum which is fair for these parts. A pretty standard type of contract arrangement.
I also sit on our local playing field committee - we have been approached by one of the companies with a view to put in a mast to fill in a large local void. Knowing that we have a rotten load of equipment in the play park they have come in with £30k upfront for 25 years - no annual rent. This seems a little low to me - but we fully acknowledge we won't get the same type of total offer as we would by going the normal route.
Do any of you have experience of similar situations - or financial costing this situation. What would say £3k per year (£75k over 25 years - with 5 yearly reviews in that term) - equate to in terms of a sole upfront payment ?
Ideally where we would like to be is £25/30k upfront - with £1k per annum rent - and five year reviews ? Does that look reasonable ?
I also sit on our local playing field committee - we have been approached by one of the companies with a view to put in a mast to fill in a large local void. Knowing that we have a rotten load of equipment in the play park they have come in with £30k upfront for 25 years - no annual rent. This seems a little low to me - but we fully acknowledge we won't get the same type of total offer as we would by going the normal route.
Do any of you have experience of similar situations - or financial costing this situation. What would say £3k per year (£75k over 25 years - with 5 yearly reviews in that term) - equate to in terms of a sole upfront payment ?
Ideally where we would like to be is £25/30k upfront - with £1k per annum rent - and five year reviews ? Does that look reasonable ?
Is there an alternative site that could be used to fill the coverage hole?
I would inclined to go for a normal deal plus a one off for the playground renewal - maybe that could be funded by the operator's charity?
£30k doesn't sound like much.
What is the view of locals? How do they feel about better coverage versus the health risks (some would say) of a mast adjacent to the play area?
I would inclined to go for a normal deal plus a one off for the playground renewal - maybe that could be funded by the operator's charity?
£30k doesn't sound like much.
What is the view of locals? How do they feel about better coverage versus the health risks (some would say) of a mast adjacent to the play area?
OP.
I do a lot of work with an Investment Firm that purchase mast sites. There is potential that you could obtain a better capital result completing a lease in the standard way, then selling the right to receive the rent on....
If you'd like a number for you to have an informal chat with someone let me know.
I do a lot of work with an Investment Firm that purchase mast sites. There is potential that you could obtain a better capital result completing a lease in the standard way, then selling the right to receive the rent on....
If you'd like a number for you to have an informal chat with someone let me know.
surveyor said:
OP.
I do a lot of work with an Investment Firm that purchase mast sites. There is potential that you could obtain a better capital result completing a lease in the standard way, then selling the right to receive the rent on....
If you'd like a number for you to have an informal chat with someone let me know.
In my experience the offers are very poor.I do a lot of work with an Investment Firm that purchase mast sites. There is potential that you could obtain a better capital result completing a lease in the standard way, then selling the right to receive the rent on....
If you'd like a number for you to have an informal chat with someone let me know.
drainbrain said:
JPJPJP said:
What is the view of locals? How do they feel about better coverage versus the health risks (some would say) of a mast adjacent to the play area?
If they have one it'll have been expressed at the time of planning application.ClassicMercs said:
Already have experience of a rent situation on a mast at work - 25 year lease - quarterly rent - between £4/5k per annum which is fair for these parts. A pretty standard type of contract arrangement.
I also sit on our local playing field committee - we have been approached by one of the companies with a view to put in a mast to fill in a large local void. Knowing that we have a rotten load of equipment in the play park they have come in with £30k upfront for 25 years - no annual rent. This seems a little low to me - but we fully acknowledge we won't get the same type of total offer as we would by going the normal route.
Do any of you have experience of similar situations - or financial costing this situation. What would say £3k per year (£75k over 25 years - with 5 yearly reviews in that term) - equate to in terms of a sole upfront payment ?
Ideally where we would like to be is £25/30k upfront - with £1k per annum rent - and five year reviews ? Does that look reasonable ?
Before doing anything I would engage Legals and Surveyor with an undertaking on costs from the phone company. You will be aware of this from your work experiences.I also sit on our local playing field committee - we have been approached by one of the companies with a view to put in a mast to fill in a large local void. Knowing that we have a rotten load of equipment in the play park they have come in with £30k upfront for 25 years - no annual rent. This seems a little low to me - but we fully acknowledge we won't get the same type of total offer as we would by going the normal route.
Do any of you have experience of similar situations - or financial costing this situation. What would say £3k per year (£75k over 25 years - with 5 yearly reviews in that term) - equate to in terms of a sole upfront payment ?
Ideally where we would like to be is £25/30k upfront - with £1k per annum rent - and five year reviews ? Does that look reasonable ?
We use Hill Dickinson and Strutt & Parker.
hanks for the replies so far. Been a busy day.
The site is an infill coverage area in a slight dip - the network are doing a lot of these having recognised that competitors have much better coverage (if that gives you any clues - V). It is semi rural just outside Scarborough (western side) - but near one of the main road intersections towards town.
A near landowner who has recently had an application (O2) passed at planning has walked away - he decided in the end he didn't want the thick end of £5k per annum and a ''sitting tenant'' as he saw it - think he had previous trouble with another farmer. So really the bulk of other land is only in the developed housing area in the immediate vicinity. The site has great access - the fibre cabinet - just need to assess the 3 phase locality and get past the geo-tech next week. Its also as far away on site as it can be from the kiddies park that needs the investment (150m approx).
My committee colleagues were initially just so overjoyed at the possibility of so much money without going begging to grant makers - they have now changed their tune a bit - but are worried that we don't want to loose the opportunity. I have explained to them the rough correlation between rents and rateable value and shown them actual examples that I know of - hence why we all now think we can do better. I am going to list a load more local sites - and make a few cheeky phone calls to land owners just to confirm the correlation on those masts I already know.
Its just how much do you discount the total return over 25 years due to the large signing on fee (after planning). Hence the idea of a normal contract basis at £75k/25yr(reviewable at each 5 years) - but based instead upon signing on fee plus annual rent (say £25/30k plus £1kpa - reviewable). Is that reasonable - too low or too high ?
All the costs are being paid at their side - using their solicitors - we know - read - read - then again - and then take independent advice on the bits that we want to query. Very impressed with the engineers and initial site sign off - lot of folks - one guy fills in the ''plan'' - everyone !! signs it as agreed - very slick approach to project management and each person had very clear knowledge of planning , trees , etc
If it all fails because we get too greedy - it'll be my grave they dig next ! But good to know you all appear to agree that we are being taken from behind as it currently stands.
The site is an infill coverage area in a slight dip - the network are doing a lot of these having recognised that competitors have much better coverage (if that gives you any clues - V). It is semi rural just outside Scarborough (western side) - but near one of the main road intersections towards town.
A near landowner who has recently had an application (O2) passed at planning has walked away - he decided in the end he didn't want the thick end of £5k per annum and a ''sitting tenant'' as he saw it - think he had previous trouble with another farmer. So really the bulk of other land is only in the developed housing area in the immediate vicinity. The site has great access - the fibre cabinet - just need to assess the 3 phase locality and get past the geo-tech next week. Its also as far away on site as it can be from the kiddies park that needs the investment (150m approx).
My committee colleagues were initially just so overjoyed at the possibility of so much money without going begging to grant makers - they have now changed their tune a bit - but are worried that we don't want to loose the opportunity. I have explained to them the rough correlation between rents and rateable value and shown them actual examples that I know of - hence why we all now think we can do better. I am going to list a load more local sites - and make a few cheeky phone calls to land owners just to confirm the correlation on those masts I already know.
Its just how much do you discount the total return over 25 years due to the large signing on fee (after planning). Hence the idea of a normal contract basis at £75k/25yr(reviewable at each 5 years) - but based instead upon signing on fee plus annual rent (say £25/30k plus £1kpa - reviewable). Is that reasonable - too low or too high ?
All the costs are being paid at their side - using their solicitors - we know - read - read - then again - and then take independent advice on the bits that we want to query. Very impressed with the engineers and initial site sign off - lot of folks - one guy fills in the ''plan'' - everyone !! signs it as agreed - very slick approach to project management and each person had very clear knowledge of planning , trees , etc
If it all fails because we get too greedy - it'll be my grave they dig next ! But good to know you all appear to agree that we are being taken from behind as it currently stands.
OP
If your going alone, do get your own legal advice on the whole lease. I would be surprised if you can't get the Operator to pay the fee's.
If it's Vodafone, then they will likely take the lease in the name of CTIL, a shared operating company by VF and O2.
It's not practical for you to own the mast. No idea how anyone has come up with that idea. It is however eminently sensible to include either no provision for sharing, or agree the pay away.
To identify local masts use Mastdata.com. If you don't know who the local land owner is you can then do a quick search on Land Reg for £3.
This is a specialist field. Do not use your high street solicitor, but use a specialist in telecoms. Same for Surveyor, if you decide to go that way.
If your going alone, do get your own legal advice on the whole lease. I would be surprised if you can't get the Operator to pay the fee's.
If it's Vodafone, then they will likely take the lease in the name of CTIL, a shared operating company by VF and O2.
It's not practical for you to own the mast. No idea how anyone has come up with that idea. It is however eminently sensible to include either no provision for sharing, or agree the pay away.
To identify local masts use Mastdata.com. If you don't know who the local land owner is you can then do a quick search on Land Reg for £3.
This is a specialist field. Do not use your high street solicitor, but use a specialist in telecoms. Same for Surveyor, if you decide to go that way.
A most useful site - thanks.
Certainly helps pinpoint masts I didn't know. And existing sharing arrangements. I can also see the provider name you mention. In terms of matching the sites to ownership I was going to search planning applications on the local council website - often comes up trumps with lots of stuff. Not just ownership but other issues to be aware of.
What is interesting is how many of the Vodafone masts are on public land - roadside verges - especially the newer one's. Looking at our site its public land (but charity owned) - our competion is possibly any appropriate local verge - but there are not many that will fit a 4mx4mx1m anchor pad. There appear to be a higher proportion of masts from other providers on private land in this area. Don't expect the County Council will be much help re their land (even if the Chair is a local aquaintance). But I will still be able to get values from the Business Rating lists - and 2017 figures.
Certainly helps pinpoint masts I didn't know. And existing sharing arrangements. I can also see the provider name you mention. In terms of matching the sites to ownership I was going to search planning applications on the local council website - often comes up trumps with lots of stuff. Not just ownership but other issues to be aware of.
What is interesting is how many of the Vodafone masts are on public land - roadside verges - especially the newer one's. Looking at our site its public land (but charity owned) - our competion is possibly any appropriate local verge - but there are not many that will fit a 4mx4mx1m anchor pad. There appear to be a higher proportion of masts from other providers on private land in this area. Don't expect the County Council will be much help re their land (even if the Chair is a local aquaintance). But I will still be able to get values from the Business Rating lists - and 2017 figures.
Typically Streetwork sites will be configured differently with monopoles and cabinets usually set back parallel to the road. For example this site (marked as O2, is actually CTIL, and operates O2 & VF). https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5003687,-1.07719...
Be careful of using rating assessments. The VOA rating manual is as below
A hybrid valuation methodology comprising two parts. The rental value is applied to the Base Site. To this the rental value of the rateable plant and machinery is added. The latter is arrived at from the decapitalised cost of the improvements made by the operator following the acquisition of the site. This includes the mast; cabins/cabinets, cabling as well as any other relevant items e.g. fencing and gates.
From your point of view the gotcha's are... RV's are 2008 values. Draft list for 2017 = 2015 values. The assessment will include additions for plant and machinery which includes the Decapitalised Cost of the tower. The assessment is based upon the principal Operators occupation and will also include any sharers rental value. However the landowner would only get a fraction of the sharers rent usually around 1/3.
Be careful of using rating assessments. The VOA rating manual is as below
A hybrid valuation methodology comprising two parts. The rental value is applied to the Base Site. To this the rental value of the rateable plant and machinery is added. The latter is arrived at from the decapitalised cost of the improvements made by the operator following the acquisition of the site. This includes the mast; cabins/cabinets, cabling as well as any other relevant items e.g. fencing and gates.
From your point of view the gotcha's are... RV's are 2008 values. Draft list for 2017 = 2015 values. The assessment will include additions for plant and machinery which includes the Decapitalised Cost of the tower. The assessment is based upon the principal Operators occupation and will also include any sharers rental value. However the landowner would only get a fraction of the sharers rent usually around 1/3.
Jockman said:
How does OP feel about this? I have a substantial Telefonica mast on my industrial site. My opinion is that this is where these should be. I personally would object to them anywhere near a playground / school etc.
Why? a basestation transmits 40 times more power than a mobile and people are happy to have a mobile an inch from their brain. You won't get within 40 inches of a basestation antenna, and probably not within 40 feetwilliamp said:
...think of the future,
If operators are required to allow each other to use their networks where coverage of their own network is poor, then demand for multiple masts in close proximity may decline. Anyone have the latest on this as it may mean that income opportunities as described by the OP become diminished?Back again - more information
I now understand what is going to happen - all tucked away quietly in discussions.
The Company that is trying to win our business as site finder is not quite what it seems.
Yes - CTIL is in the background.
BUT - the site finder will have a somewhat larger interest !! They would be the one's paying us a ''small'' upfront fee then taking the 25 years of annual rent - and making a killing.
Their accounts show £20M advanced to the UK business by the USA owner - covering the upfront fees to date. Small company accounts of course don't show much but the one brief note in the accounts gave it all away and the penny dropped. Either they have cash - or the bank is advancing it against signed leases.
What I now need to look at is the nearby O2 site that didn't go ahead - see if that was CTIL - and who the agent was - as that was nearly £5k per annum before the landowner pulled out. The downside is that we may not get the upfront lump sum that is so attractive at the moment.
I now understand what is going to happen - all tucked away quietly in discussions.
The Company that is trying to win our business as site finder is not quite what it seems.
Yes - CTIL is in the background.
BUT - the site finder will have a somewhat larger interest !! They would be the one's paying us a ''small'' upfront fee then taking the 25 years of annual rent - and making a killing.
Their accounts show £20M advanced to the UK business by the USA owner - covering the upfront fees to date. Small company accounts of course don't show much but the one brief note in the accounts gave it all away and the penny dropped. Either they have cash - or the bank is advancing it against signed leases.
What I now need to look at is the nearby O2 site that didn't go ahead - see if that was CTIL - and who the agent was - as that was nearly £5k per annum before the landowner pulled out. The downside is that we may not get the upfront lump sum that is so attractive at the moment.
RM said:
What's the name of the site finder, can you say?
Sorry - don't want to say in forum - but discussed with another on here.It turns out the different agent who dealt with the nearby failed farmer project was also involved in another recent installation in town - both had been for CTIL - as ours would be. So I'm giving them a ring tomorrow to assess the potential in an alternative proposal - there appears to be a need from CTIL in the immediate area.
Hi all new to this forum so apologies for raising an old thread. I'm in the process of looking for a mobile provider who would be interested in a site i'm developing as a sports facility. As you can imagine financing such a project will be a challenge and any assistance financially would be most welcome. Does anyone know anybody i can contact direct?
Shared Access - they have a website.
But if there is an interest you do really need to appoint your own agent to negotiate the best result - Irish lady from a business in Sheffield area is who I would have use (depends on your location).
It depends how many other masts are in the area and what coverage they are wanting to fill.
But if there is an interest you do really need to appoint your own agent to negotiate the best result - Irish lady from a business in Sheffield area is who I would have use (depends on your location).
It depends how many other masts are in the area and what coverage they are wanting to fill.
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