Builder, developer, obfuscation
Discussion
Sorry but the photo doesn't show any real defect. It's an ugly looking detail with all that mortar pointing below and at the sides, but the real rain water seal will be from the dressing between the lead collar and the lead slate, and how that lead slate is lapped into the tiles and sarking above and below. As an observation, the flashing is nice and close to the ridge so there won't be huge amounts of rain running past and it looks nicely protected by the adjacent roofs. If you can get close, any defect that is letting in water here should be very clear, get some photos to show exactly what the original roofer did wrong as that will be essential for any claim.
As a side, is it possible that the damp you are seeing is condensation rather than rain water? If the insulation is located at rafter level and is cut back to clear the flue, it's a very common cold-bridge which leads to condensation dripping when there's a noticeable temperature difference. Replacing one lead slate for another won't address that if that's the actual problem.
As before, if you are looking to go beyond the warranty claim and recover your excess, speak to a solicitor before going too far with any repairs as you may lose any opportunity to structure an effective claim.
As a side, is it possible that the damp you are seeing is condensation rather than rain water? If the insulation is located at rafter level and is cut back to clear the flue, it's a very common cold-bridge which leads to condensation dripping when there's a noticeable temperature difference. Replacing one lead slate for another won't address that if that's the actual problem.
As before, if you are looking to go beyond the warranty claim and recover your excess, speak to a solicitor before going too far with any repairs as you may lose any opportunity to structure an effective claim.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Quick question as a follow up. Who built the house? Was it a company in the group of companies that has the common director?
Company X is the developer, according to Companies House their secretary is also a builder. Yes.Edited by John145 on Friday 9th December 16:52
The Surveyor said:
Sorry but the photo doesn't show any real defect. It's an ugly looking detail with all that mortar pointing below and at the sides, but the real rain water seal will be from the dressing between the lead collar and the lead slate, and how that lead slate is lapped into the tiles and sarking above and below. As an observation, the flashing is nice and close to the ridge so there won't be huge amounts of rain running past and it looks nicely protected by the adjacent roofs. If you can get close, any defect that is letting in water here should be very clear, get some photos to show exactly what the original roofer did wrong as that will be essential for any claim.
As a side, is it possible that the damp you are seeing is condensation rather than rain water? If the insulation is located at rafter level and is cut back to clear the flue, it's a very common cold-bridge which leads to condensation dripping when there's a noticeable temperature difference. Replacing one lead slate for another won't address that if that's the actual problem.
As before, if you are looking to go beyond the warranty claim and recover your excess, speak to a solicitor before going too far with any repairs as you may lose any opportunity to structure an effective claim.
Is there a regulation encompassing how the collar should be? I've asked this question of Cambs BC but yet to hear a response. I think my best method is to challenge any deviation from the norm. As a side, is it possible that the damp you are seeing is condensation rather than rain water? If the insulation is located at rafter level and is cut back to clear the flue, it's a very common cold-bridge which leads to condensation dripping when there's a noticeable temperature difference. Replacing one lead slate for another won't address that if that's the actual problem.
As before, if you are looking to go beyond the warranty claim and recover your excess, speak to a solicitor before going too far with any repairs as you may lose any opportunity to structure an effective claim.
It is possible that the damp is condensation. How is it best to determine this? Attached is a picture from the interior, it's an attic master bedroom.
do you have legal cover with your home insurance? if so, speak with them - its usually free - they'll tell you what to do, and will probably suggest writing a letter giving the builder so many days to respond or fix. the chances are your home insurance provider would want it fixed too to avoid further damage to the property.
I hate to say this but from my experience you are wasting your time, and money, by trying to get a builder/developer back to a defect such as that if they don't seem keen.
That comment is based on my experience in dealing with many developers and builders whilst working in the housing industry. I've seen cock ups, incompetence and poor workmanship on a staggering scale, from major housebuilders. Trying to get them to return to these issues or cough up the money to get someone else to fix it is virtually impossible.
One of my mates bought a very nice 5 bed detached house from a well known and well respected developer about 2 years ago, and you wouldn't believe the s
tty workmanship and faults it has. He has been fighting them for the full 2 years to get them to come back and fix stuff but their response has pretty much been 'ps off', even when he has sent them numerous solicitors letters. NHBC, local councils Building control and various inspectors couldn't have been less interested either.
My advice is: If the builder/developer won't come out and fix it after you have attempted a few letters/phone calls with them, just get it fixed yourself before it gets any worse, forget about the matter, and carry on enjoying your new home.
That comment is based on my experience in dealing with many developers and builders whilst working in the housing industry. I've seen cock ups, incompetence and poor workmanship on a staggering scale, from major housebuilders. Trying to get them to return to these issues or cough up the money to get someone else to fix it is virtually impossible.
One of my mates bought a very nice 5 bed detached house from a well known and well respected developer about 2 years ago, and you wouldn't believe the s
tty workmanship and faults it has. He has been fighting them for the full 2 years to get them to come back and fix stuff but their response has pretty much been 'ps off', even when he has sent them numerous solicitors letters. NHBC, local councils Building control and various inspectors couldn't have been less interested either.My advice is: If the builder/developer won't come out and fix it after you have attempted a few letters/phone calls with them, just get it fixed yourself before it gets any worse, forget about the matter, and carry on enjoying your new home.
John145 said:
Is there a regulation encompassing how the collar should be? I've asked this question of Cambs BC but yet to hear a response. I think my best method is to challenge any deviation from the norm.
It is possible that the damp is condensation. How is it best to determine this? ....
Flashings are covered by Approved Document C in the Building Regulations. That effectively says that flashings are needed, where they are required and gives basic technical standards. It would only be a useful reference if your claim was that there was no flashing at all. You will need to reference British Standards for workmanship and lead work standards but any 'expert' you bring in would need to do that to structure a proper evaluation over whether your existing flashing is substandard. It looks scruffy, but that doesn't always mean it's defective.It is possible that the damp is condensation. How is it best to determine this? ....
Condensation is determined by internal environmental factors rather that external weather. Warm internal air holds more moisture than cold air, when that hits something cold you get condensation. The most effective way to check is from the roof space. Dry the flashings around it internally and check it occasionally both during normal winter evening, and when it's raining. Kitchen roll is a good tell-tail and will show you when it's getting wet. If it's not weather dependant, it's condensation.
That plasterboard looks like it needs cutting-out and replacing anyway so that would give you access for basic observations.
The Surveyor said:
Sorry but the photo doesn't show any real defect.
Really ? It's dire. Have they welted the lead ? It's obviously isn't returned over far enough looking at tile gauge . The pointing to the ridge is of equal st quality. And sounds like another s
t roofer is trying to tuck him up to fix it.roofer said:
The Surveyor said:
Sorry but the photo doesn't show any real defect.
Really ? It's dire. Have they welted the lead ? It's obviously isn't returned over far enough looking at tile gauge . The pointing to the ridge is of equal st quality. And sounds like another s
t roofer is trying to tuck him up to fix it.Looking at the photo, where is the rain water actually getting in?
Reckon your best way to deal with thus is a Letterbefore Action.
Explain the issue and why they are responsible.
Explain you are giving them a reasonable limited time to either carry out a proper repair themselves or to pay you the excess so you can get insurers involved.
Further explain you have to get the repairs done as it's causing further damage and that if you don't hear back by xxxx you will get the repairs done and then will take him to court with no further notice.
Send it recorded delivery and include a copy of the initial small claims papers completed as far as you can to show you intend going ahead with it if need be.
Hopefully he will pay up.
Explain the issue and why they are responsible.
Explain you are giving them a reasonable limited time to either carry out a proper repair themselves or to pay you the excess so you can get insurers involved.
Further explain you have to get the repairs done as it's causing further damage and that if you don't hear back by xxxx you will get the repairs done and then will take him to court with no further notice.
Send it recorded delivery and include a copy of the initial small claims papers completed as far as you can to show you intend going ahead with it if need be.
Hopefully he will pay up.
The Surveyor said:
I don't know if they have welted the lead, you can't see that on the photo can you. You're guessing on the lead return as well which isn't going to help the OP. That was the point of my comment on the photo.
Looking at the photo, where is the rain water actually getting in?
You don't think the tile behind the svp that been lobbed up is a clue ? The tiles are sitting too flat abutting the lead slate. It's an fair guess the slate doesn't even run under them properly. The same lob on the ridge tiles is also epic quality ...Looking at the photo, where is the rain water actually getting in?
roofer said:
You don't think the tile behind the svp that been lobbed up is a clue ? The tiles are sitting too flat abutting the lead slate. It's an fair guess the slate doesn't even run under them properly. The same lob on the ridge tiles is also epic quality ...
It's clear from the photo that it's not pretty, but another 'fair guess' over what the actual problem is isn't really going to help the OP here.The Surveyor said:
roofer said:
You don't think the tile behind the svp that been lobbed up is a clue ? The tiles are sitting too flat abutting the lead slate. It's an fair guess the slate doesn't even run under them properly. The same lob on the ridge tiles is also epic quality ...
It's clear from the photo that it's not pretty, but another 'fair guess' over what the actual problem is isn't really going to help the OP here.The main culprit was the then gas board, they were found liable in the end as it was due to a modification to a standard item.
Case was in North Wales but google has let me down.
Actually not sure whether the gas board had morphed into British Gas when they were found liable.
roofer said:
The Surveyor said:
Sorry but the photo doesn't show any real defect.
Really ? It's dire. Have they welted the lead ? It's obviously isn't returned over far enough looking at tile gauge . The pointing to the ridge is of equal st quality. And sounds like another s
t roofer is trying to tuck him up to fix it.The Surveyor said:
roofer said:
You don't think the tile behind the svp that been lobbed up is a clue ? The tiles are sitting too flat abutting the lead slate. It's an fair guess the slate doesn't even run under them properly. The same lob on the ridge tiles is also epic quality ...
It's clear from the photo that it's not pretty, but another 'fair guess' over what the actual problem is isn't really going to help the OP here.
roofer said:
Let's just say my ' Fair' guess is about a 100% more accurate than your assessment then.
My assessment is that it needs looking at because the photo isn't very clear. You have diagnosed the problem based upon a fair guess, and are claiming that your diagnosis of the problem off a blurred photo is 100% accurate. I'm surprised you haven't included a quote! The Surveyor said:
My assessment is that it needs looking at because the photo isn't very clear. You have diagnosed the problem based upon a fair guess, and are claiming that your diagnosis of the problem off a blurred photo is 100% accurate. I'm surprised you haven't included a quote!
The photo contains all that is required. You would never get the tiles that flat if the lead was installed correctly. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff