Parking - the private enforcers got me!

[Mrr T]

Red Devil said:

Mrr T said:

I am trying to work on a pocket guide I can post to this type of question, hopefully will finished this weekend.

By all means if you wish, but why reinvent the wheel? It's all been done before and the answers can be found elsewhere. Viz:

- MSE
- PePiPoo
- Parking Prankster
- BMPA

Plus if you need a Lay Rep/McKenzie Friend in court.*

- Private Parking Appeals

 * n.b. Most High Street solicitors don't have a clue about parking cases.
    And some judges are a bit flaky too although many are wising up to the tricks PPCs like to play.

There is a huge amount of helpful information and help on those sites. However, when I have directed others in this position to the sites they have struggled to follow the process. There are stickies but they all seem out of date and for example PH only sticky is on Parking Eye.

Also while there is a huge amount of knowledge amongst the site posters I do find some are quite rude to new posts where the poster has not done any research.

All I am doing is putting together a brief guide to the types of enforcement, a step by step time line, and some of the items that can create a defence. This should allow those new to the issue to concentrate their research on the sites to the thread that will really help. They will also be able to be in a better position to request help on the sites.

[Ken Figenus]

I appreciate what you are doing as I have had a good look at sites kindly linked to by posters here to try and steel myself up, however I do worry that much info is out of date and it is also quite a bit of stuff to cobble together.

[S11Steve]

Ken Figenus said:

I appreciate what you are doing as I have had a good look at sites kindly linked to by posters here to try and steel myself up, however I do worry that much info is out of date and it is also quite a bit of stuff to cobble together.

Easy - soft appeal first to the parking shark, enough to get it escalated to the next stage.

Dear Sir,

As keeper of the vehicle, I wish to appeal the above ticket on the basis that the vehicle was "not parked" at the time of the alleged contravention. I do not believe that the signage is not clear enough to highlight the terms of any contract, nor does it distinguish between parking and stopping.

I also wish to challenge the liability of keeper, as I do not believe the documentation I received is compliant with the strict terms of POFA 2012.

Love and Kisses,

Ken

[Ken Figenus]

Thanks mate! The only thing is they don't bother to distinguish between parking/waiting and cunningly don't alleged that as being the 'contractual break' that is being assumed and charged for. In society there are norms and practice around enforcing 'double yellows' and is it unreasonable that these precedent might be carried over to a feudal car park? Is that a reasonable expectation?

Got nowhere with JD Sports' manager as they have never heard of anyone being done and have no idea who the landlord is .

I'll take a GoPro and a pic of the signs tomorrow as I'm down there. If signs are clear and well placed they can have their £60 as I did do something slightly wrong for 4 mins and did not read their small print - well how could I; I never got out the b car! If the signs are obtuse or designed for punitive revenue then I'm up for it. Thanks for the advice comrades!

[speedking31]

S11Steve said:

I do not believe that the signage is not clear enough

Oops!

[elanfan]

Ken I do know that entire estate inc MaccyD is (or certainly was) owned by the same Landlords I can't for the life of me remember the name but if you went into one of the other retailers one of the managers should know the name.

On your contravention - as others have said double yellows are not enforceable by Traffic Wardens on a private estate so have no relevance. If the parking signage doesn't specifically preclude stopping/parking on double yellows then what have you contravened. You may not have stopped in a marked bay but that's not what their invoice says. There are legal definitions of parking and I'm not sure waiting falls under that. Bit of effort and I doubt you'll be paying anything. DLTBGYD

Edited by elanfan on Saturday 21st January 03:01

[Trabi601]

As someone who has to deal with the genuine customer complaints regarding these issues - why can't people just park in the bays and / or not park on private land, causing obstructions?

I get both sides of the complaints - those genuine customers inconvenienced by inconsiderate idiots and complaints from the inconsiderate idiots who think they can park on private land because they were 'just nipping into the shop over the road'.

Unauthorised parking causes me some significant headaches - aborted fuel deliveries (half way through unloading!), deliveries being diverted elsewhere etc., it's an absolute pain to deal with, so I have very little sympathy - especially when I hear of people boasting they've managed to 'get away' with several tickets.

[surveyor_101]

Trabi601 said:

As someone who has to deal with the genuine customer complaints regarding these issues - why can't people just park in the bays and / or not park on private land, causing obstructions?

I get both sides of the complaints - those genuine customers inconvenienced by inconsiderate idiots and complaints from the inconsiderate idiots who think they can park on private land because they were 'just nipping into the shop over the road'.

Unauthorised parking causes me some significant headaches - aborted fuel deliveries (half way through unloading!), deliveries being diverted elsewhere etc., it's an absolute pain to deal with, so I have very little sympathy - especially when I hear of people boasting they've managed to 'get away' with several tickets.

I have defended one or two tickets were the driver was taking the piss. However I can get them cancelled because the operator and the industry is a shower. If it started being regulated properly without kangaroo courts and following industry code and having a contract with the landowner etc then I would have a lot more sympathy for genuine landowners who have cause to manage their land.

Go to appeal and the PC presents a signs plan that doesn't match the photos of the signage. Photos of signs that's state the sign was removed two years ago and is clearly not there after consulting street view. That's parking eye by the way who are no small player.

Anpr car parks that allow no grace periods and assume all cars that enter park! It's like shooting fish in a barrel.



8 out 10 tickets I see should of been issued and are done by chancers overstayers who have been allowed scant time to leave the car park. Double dip scans some operators have been caught multiable times doctoring photos and time stamps.

Lack of planning permission for car parks etc I could go on. I have reported fraud to the bpa and they couldn't give a money's. parking eye regularly present different contact for the same car park in one case I k ow. That's fraud !

Millions is being extorted by these companies from people when then clearly don't have all the papaerwork and legal right to claim money in a lot of cases.

Tickets for staying at hotels that's we were entitled to stay at. The operators don't cancel them I have to mess about with the hotels.

Edited by surveyor_101 on Saturday 21st January 07:24

Edited by surveyor_101 on Saturday 21st January 07:27

[PurpleMoonlight]

surveyor_101 said:

I have defended one or two tickets were the driver was taking the piss. However I can get them cancelled because the operator and the industry is a shower. If it started being regulated properly without kangaroo courts and following industry code and having a contract with the landowner etc then I would have a lot more sympathy for genuine landowners who have cause to manage their land.

Interestingly, I used retail park in Leicester this week. I has a cinema and several restaurants on it. It was free for 5 hours when I last used it a few months ago but now is pay and display operated by Parkingeye.

There were no obvious signs of the change on the way in. Only when entering the restaurant did I notice a big sign on their door that it was now pay and display, but they can validate free parking for 2 hours. So I go in to check and they tell me that can't currently validate as their machine isn't working!

I go outside to look for the payment machines and signage. I can only see one machine nearby, in a central area that could easily be missed and a few signs what must have been 10ft up lamp posts. I looked for the ANPR at the entrance and sure enough there it was about 20ft in the air.

All this took about 10 minutes before I entered my reg no. in the machine and purchased a ticket.

Needless to say I have kept it safe should I need it.

Oh, and I won't be going back there now because I hate paying for parking.

[bad company]

All this appeals and POPLA stuff looks like a waste of time to me. if I were the op I would write back to the parking firm saying their yellow lines count for nothing on private land etc., and that you will not be paying. Invite them to sue you if they want to force the issue. Bear in mind that in the unlikely event that they do sue you can have the case transferred to be heard in YOUR local County Court.

Good luck op.

[surveyor_101]

bad company said:

All this appeals and POPLA stuff looks like a waste of time to me. if I were the op I would write back to the parking firm saying their yellow lines count for nothing on private land etc., and that you will not be paying. Invite them to sue you if they want to force the issue. Bear in mind that in the unlikely event that they do sue you can have the case transferred to be heard in YOUR local County Court.

Good luck op.

The contract signs will I assume have a reference to parking in a marked bays etc if the op remains onsite.

So picking on the lines specifically is pointless. State they didn't park they dropped on a passenger etc. Attacked the lack of landowner authority and signs that won't past the clear signage test applied by the judge in the beavis case.

[Trabi601]

surveyor_101 said:

I have defended one or two tickets were the driver was taking the piss. However I can get them cancelled because the operator and the industry is a shower. If it started being regulated properly without kangaroo courts and following industry code and having a contract with the landowner etc then I would have a lot more sympathy for genuine landowners who have cause to manage their land.

Go to appeal and the PC presents a signs plan that doesn't match the photos of the signage. Photos of signs that's state the sign was removed two years ago and is clearly not there after consulting street view. That's parking eye by the way who are no small player.

Anpr car parks that allow no grace periods and assume all cars that enter park! It's like shooting fish in a barrel.



8 out 10 tickets I see should of been issued and are done by chancers overstayers who have been allowed scant time to leave the car park. Double dip scans some operators have been caught multiable times doctoring photos and time stamps.

Lack of planning permission for car parks etc I could go on. I have reported fraud to the bpa and they couldn't give a money's. parking eye regularly present different contact for the same car park in one case I k ow. That's fraud !

Millions is being extorted by these companies from people when then clearly don't have all the papaerwork and legal right to claim money in a lot of cases.

Tickets for staying at hotels that's we were entitled to stay at. The operators don't cancel them I have to mess about with the hotels.

That's all very well, but I, and a vast majority of people manage to get through their week without picking up tickets - yet we hear about people who have 'defended' several tickets. Just makes it look like there are some who have a bee in their bonnet about private parking enforcement and feel they have the 'right' to do as they please.

[Red Devil]

surveyor_101 said:

Trabi601 said:

As someone who has to deal with the genuine customer complaints regarding these issues - why can't people just park in the bays and / or not park on private land, causing obstructions?

I get both sides of the complaints - those genuine customers inconvenienced by inconsiderate idiots and complaints from the inconsiderate idiots who think they can park on private land because they were 'just nipping into the shop over the road'.

Unauthorised parking causes me some significant headaches - aborted fuel deliveries (half way through unloading!), deliveries being diverted elsewhere etc., it's an absolute pain to deal with, so I have very little sympathy - especially when I hear of people boasting they've managed to 'get away' with several tickets.

I have defended one or two tickets were the driver was taking the piss. However I can get them cancelled because the operator and the industry is a shower. If it started being regulated properly without kangaroo courts and following industry code and having a contract with the landowner etc then I would have a lot more sympathy for genuine landowners who have cause to manage their land.

Go to appeal and the PC presents a signs plan that doesn't match the photos of the signage. Photos of signs that's state the sign was removed two years ago and is clearly not there after consulting street view. That's parking eye by the way who are no small player.

Anpr car parks that allow no grace periods and assume all cars that enter park! It's like shooting fish in a barrel.



8 out 10 tickets I see should of been issued and are done by chancers overstayers who have been allowed scant time to leave the car park. Double dip scans some operators have been caught multiable times doctoring photos and time stamps.

Lack of planning permission for car parks etc I could go on. I have reported fraud to the bpa and they couldn't give a money's. parking eye regularly present different contact for the same car park in one case I k ow. That's fraud !

Millions is being extorted by these companies from people when then clearly don't have all the papaerwork and legal right to claim money in a lot of cases.

Tickets for staying at hotels that's we were entitled to stay at. The operators don't cancel them I have to mess about with the hotels.

It's a shoddy industry which urgently requires reform. The self-regulation permitted by the government (which had the wool comprehensively pulled over its eyes during the draft stages of PoFA 2012) isn't working. The planning permission issue relates to signage. PE routinely doesn't bother and and only complies when called out on it. The BPA (as the PPC's effective tame trade union) is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and does nothing to sanction its members which are committing an offence - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/783/regula...

I understand where Trabi601 is coming from but when PPCs don't play by the rules they can hardly expect to command any sympathy from motorists. Landowners that employ such parasitical companies should understand this. It is in their own interests to have their sub-contracted operators behave ethically rather than playing Pontius Pilate and trying to distance themselves from what is going on.

I predicted at the time that the clamping ban would not be the panacea that everyone thought. Once the Amendments stage of the PoFA Bill was completed it was obvious to me that the cowboys would simply start wearing sharp suits instead of overalls. I was right. The Daily Fail and Lynne Featherstone MP have a lot to answer for.

[eccles]

surveyor_101 said:

bad company said:

All this appeals and POPLA stuff looks like a waste of time to me. if I were the op I would write back to the parking firm saying their yellow lines count for nothing on private land etc., and that you will not be paying. Invite them to sue you if they want to force the issue. Bear in mind that in the unlikely event that they do sue you can have the case transferred to be heard in YOUR local County Court.

Good luck op.

The contract signs will I assume have a reference to parking in a marked bays etc if the op remains onsite.

So picking on the lines specifically is pointless. State they didn't park they dropped on a passenger etc. Attacked the lack of landowner authority and signs that won't past the clear signage test applied by the judge in the beavis case.

But the ticket in question doesn't say 'Not parked in marked bay'. They are the ones who've brought up the yellow lines so they must think they are enforceable.

[surveyor_101]

Trabi601 said:

That's all very well, but I, and a vast majority of people manage to get through their week without picking up tickets - yet we hear about people who have 'defended' several tickets. Just makes it look like there are some who have a bee in their bonnet about private parking enforcement and feel they have the 'right' to do as they please.

I have had a couple the rest are all staff or friends.

Our vans are all over the place and we are getting a lot of tickets from travel lodges even after our staff have registered the vehicles with reception.

I have one claiming I was at a services for 13 hours however the time stamps would be 37 hours, it was two visits days apart and I get a coffee and have a wee. Don't stay anywhere near two hours.

Edited by surveyor_101 on Saturday 21st January 16:41

[elanfan]

surveyor_101 said:

bad company said:

All this appeals and POPLA stuff looks like a waste of time to me. if I were the op I would write back to the parking firm saying their yellow lines count for nothing on private land etc., and that you will not be paying. Invite them to sue you if they want to force the issue. Bear in mind that in the unlikely event that they do sue you can have the case transferred to be heard in YOUR local County Court.

Good luck op.

The contract signs will I assume have a reference to parking in a marked bays etc if the op remains onsite.

So picking on the lines specifically is pointless. State they didn't park they dropped on a passenger etc. Attacked the lack of landowner authority and signs that won't past the clear signage test applied by the judge in the beavis case.

But the contravention does not say 'Not parked in a marked bay' it does say stopped on yellow lines. If the signage I.e. the contract they are relying on doesn't refer to yellow lines at al, then what's their argument. Also if they say parking only in marked bays his argument is that he wasn't parked but waiting - there is a difference.

[Some Guy]

Are yellow lines in a private car park enforceable the same as ones on the highway?

[Red Devil]

eccles said:

But the ticket in question doesn't say 'Not parked in marked bay'. They are the ones who've brought up the yellow lines so they must think they are enforceable.

See below.

Some Guy said:

Are yellow lines in a private car park enforceable the same as ones on the highway?

In short, no.

On street DYLs are covered by statutory legislation provided they have been authorised by a TMO/TRO. There is no such equivalent on private land. The latter is subject to contract so it depends entirely on what the sign/s say (if any, and they are sufficiently prominent and positioned so that they can be seen and read) because they are what forms said contract. It also requires the PPC to have the correct landowner authority to bring proceedings in its own name.

[eccles]

Red Devil said:

eccles said:

But the ticket in question doesn't say 'Not parked in marked bay'. They are the ones who've brought up the yellow lines so they must think they are enforceable.

See below.

Some Guy said:

Are yellow lines in a private car park enforceable the same as ones on the highway?

In short, no.

On street DYLs are covered by statutory legislation provided they have been authorised by a TMO/TRO. There is no such equivalent on private land. The latter is subject to contract so it depends entirely on what the sign/s say (if any, and they are sufficiently prominent and positioned so that they can be seen and read) because they are what forms said contract. It also requires the PPC to have the correct landowner authority to bring proceedings in its own name.

I know that, my post was in reply to Surveyor-101's post. The parking company are the ones who brought the yellow lines up.

[bad company]

elanfan said:

surveyor_101 said:

bad company said:

All this appeals and POPLA stuff looks like a waste of time to me. if I were the op I would write back to the parking firm saying their yellow lines count for nothing on private land etc., and that you will not be paying. Invite them to sue you if they want to force the issue. Bear in mind that in the unlikely event that they do sue you can have the case transferred to be heard in YOUR local County Court.

Good luck op.

The contract signs will I assume have a reference to parking in a marked bays etc if the op remains onsite.

So picking on the lines specifically is pointless. State they didn't park they dropped on a passenger etc. Attacked the lack of landowner authority and signs that won't past the clear signage test applied by the judge in the beavis case.

But the contravention does not say 'Not parked in a marked bay' it does say stopped on yellow lines. If the signage I.e. the contract they are relying on doesn't refer to yellow lines at al, then what's their argument. Also if they say parking only in marked bays his argument is that he wasn't parked but waiting - there is a difference.

Also if the op just 'stopped on yellow lines' is it reasonable to assume that he would have had the opportunity to read the signs? I would say probably not.