Parking & Land Dispute
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm after some advise & a potential solution (if there is one).
Back story below:
The in-laws live in a row of terraced houses one side of a section of land, in the middle, is an oval shaped parking space for say 15-20 cars or so. (see photo).
On the opposite side, is a block of apartments, there is one entrance into the car park & that is it.
The terraces houses are land-locked to the rear & have always shared the parking space with the flats. (The houses have been there long before the flats).
All of the residents of the flats (including in-laws) age from 60+.
The road up to the houses is also very steep.
Around 12 months ago a new tennant moved into the flats, whether or not it matters, but he has a bit of a record of being an a
hole, drugs/anti-social behavour, violence etc.
Anyway, he doesn't work so is around all day & would be causing havoc, racing un-registered cars & motor cross bikes up & down the car-park, the road etc, all of which was reported to the police & his land-lord by the houses owners.
He has also on more than one occasion threatened both the residents of the house, my gf & her mother for 'grassing' him up.
The police said they can't do anything about it unless they had proof (fair enough), so he was given a quiet talking too instead by the plod, it was agreed (as one of the officers lived on a nearby road, that his behavior was anti-social, as even he could hear it from his house, alas, nothing was done, as not enough proof.
The residents of the houses then began to complain to the landlords of the flats about the tenant, he was continually parking un-taxed & insured vehicles in the spaces provided, meaning that nobody could park & he would then be abusive.
After various complaints to the property management company/landlords about this guy, it appears, that the landlords just got sick of the complaints, so went & have employed a parking company to ticket anyone who isn't a resident of the flats.
We've all joked they just should of kept quiet and not moaned about the guy, but he was a complete pain in backside, so they couldn't just leave it.
As it transpires, when the developer bought the land 15-20 years or so ago, (approx) they got the piece of land that is now the parking spaces & have decided to deny the houses opposite access & ticket them accordingly.
The residents have attempted to seek legal advise, however this has all come into effect today, the residents have been offered 1 parking permit per house, the nearest parking is (i would say 100yd away down 2 steep hills, however they will only be granted the permits if they agree to drop the legal action.
It may be a fruitless effort, but can anyone suggest anything that could be done to help the homeowners out?
It may seem trivial, but it's of a major burden to the in-laws & the other house residents, most of whom are now trying to sell their properties as it's making their life hell.
I'm after some advise & a potential solution (if there is one).
Back story below:
The in-laws live in a row of terraced houses one side of a section of land, in the middle, is an oval shaped parking space for say 15-20 cars or so. (see photo).
On the opposite side, is a block of apartments, there is one entrance into the car park & that is it.
The terraces houses are land-locked to the rear & have always shared the parking space with the flats. (The houses have been there long before the flats).
All of the residents of the flats (including in-laws) age from 60+.
The road up to the houses is also very steep.
Around 12 months ago a new tennant moved into the flats, whether or not it matters, but he has a bit of a record of being an a
hole, drugs/anti-social behavour, violence etc.Anyway, he doesn't work so is around all day & would be causing havoc, racing un-registered cars & motor cross bikes up & down the car-park, the road etc, all of which was reported to the police & his land-lord by the houses owners.
He has also on more than one occasion threatened both the residents of the house, my gf & her mother for 'grassing' him up.
The police said they can't do anything about it unless they had proof (fair enough), so he was given a quiet talking too instead by the plod, it was agreed (as one of the officers lived on a nearby road, that his behavior was anti-social, as even he could hear it from his house, alas, nothing was done, as not enough proof.
The residents of the houses then began to complain to the landlords of the flats about the tenant, he was continually parking un-taxed & insured vehicles in the spaces provided, meaning that nobody could park & he would then be abusive.
After various complaints to the property management company/landlords about this guy, it appears, that the landlords just got sick of the complaints, so went & have employed a parking company to ticket anyone who isn't a resident of the flats.
We've all joked they just should of kept quiet and not moaned about the guy, but he was a complete pain in backside, so they couldn't just leave it.
As it transpires, when the developer bought the land 15-20 years or so ago, (approx) they got the piece of land that is now the parking spaces & have decided to deny the houses opposite access & ticket them accordingly.
The residents have attempted to seek legal advise, however this has all come into effect today, the residents have been offered 1 parking permit per house, the nearest parking is (i would say 100yd away down 2 steep hills, however they will only be granted the permits if they agree to drop the legal action.
It may be a fruitless effort, but can anyone suggest anything that could be done to help the homeowners out?
It may seem trivial, but it's of a major burden to the in-laws & the other house residents, most of whom are now trying to sell their properties as it's making their life hell.
You seem to have forgotten the bit where you describe the legal action the houses are taking against the developer. Not sure the fact that they have been allowed to park there counts as a legal right to continue though. Their offer of 1 permit per household on land the houses don't own seem reasonable to me. Presumably this will impact their property values, unless the description is quite slick,
So the residents of the houses have been parking on private land owned by the freeholder of the flats, and simultaneously complaining about abuse of that car park?
That abuse has been cracked-down on by parking enforcement. Limited to the residents of the flats...? Probably not the greatest of surprises. Offering the residents parking permits seems the best compromise.
There's about 20 parking spaces - how many flats?
That abuse has been cracked-down on by parking enforcement. Limited to the residents of the flats...? Probably not the greatest of surprises. Offering the residents parking permits seems the best compromise.
There's about 20 parking spaces - how many flats?
cbmotorsport said:
Looks like the houes have great back gardens, so don't really need the front gardens. Gravel them and park outside the houses?
Problem with that would be that they have no vehicular right of way over the pavement from the car park into the gardens, and several of the parking spaces would go. No point asking the council for a drop kerb, because the council don't own the car park.All i have is info gleaned from the MIL in brief conversations & from a friend of mine who actually works for the property management company.
My friend says the management company has said the land owner will only issue them a permit if they agree to drop the legal action, (from my understanding as a gesture of good will).
The houses have always been allowed to park there until all these disputes began 12 months or so ago.
They were all told they had until the 31st Jan to either agree to the landowners terms or be ticketed every time they bring a car into the area that isn't registered, however the parking company has showed up today & ticketed every car in the car park, as such & because they've been speaking with solicitors they don't want to agree to the terms in case it would make things more difficult to dispute further down the line & i don't doubt it will impact on the houses values.
I don't doubt the landowner can probably do what they want as it is their land, but i do feel a bit sorry for the houses residents, hence my asking.
My friend says the management company has said the land owner will only issue them a permit if they agree to drop the legal action, (from my understanding as a gesture of good will).
The houses have always been allowed to park there until all these disputes began 12 months or so ago.
They were all told they had until the 31st Jan to either agree to the landowners terms or be ticketed every time they bring a car into the area that isn't registered, however the parking company has showed up today & ticketed every car in the car park, as such & because they've been speaking with solicitors they don't want to agree to the terms in case it would make things more difficult to dispute further down the line & i don't doubt it will impact on the houses values.
I don't doubt the landowner can probably do what they want as it is their land, but i do feel a bit sorry for the houses residents, hence my asking.
TooMany2cvs said:
So the residents of the houses have been parking on private land owned by the freeholder of the flats, and simultaneously complaining about abuse of that car park?
The houses have been on the road long since before the land was acquired & the flats opposite built, the car-park has always been a bit of car-park.
That abuse has been cracked-down on by parking enforcement. Limited to the residents of the flats...? Probably not the greatest of surprises. Offering the residents parking permits seems the best compromise.
The owners of the house complained about a tenant who was being anti-social, making their lives difficult & threatening them, the police couldn't do anything without proof & then asked the landlord to have a word with their tenant, the landlord didn't do anything about the problem tenant, but thought that stopping the house owners parking there would somehow solve the issue, instead of just having a word with their tenant.
There's about 20 parking spaces - how many flats? 11, but only 5/6 of the flats have cars.
So there is going to be a lot of free spaces, which (to me would make sense) to just lease or rent to a house holder?!
I'm pretty sure there's another row of houses below their back gardens so it's not a possibility.The houses have been on the road long since before the land was acquired & the flats opposite built, the car-park has always been a bit of car-park.
That abuse has been cracked-down on by parking enforcement. Limited to the residents of the flats...? Probably not the greatest of surprises. Offering the residents parking permits seems the best compromise.
The owners of the house complained about a tenant who was being anti-social, making their lives difficult & threatening them, the police couldn't do anything without proof & then asked the landlord to have a word with their tenant, the landlord didn't do anything about the problem tenant, but thought that stopping the house owners parking there would somehow solve the issue, instead of just having a word with their tenant.
There's about 20 parking spaces - how many flats? 11, but only 5/6 of the flats have cars.
So there is going to be a lot of free spaces, which (to me would make sense) to just lease or rent to a house holder?!
cbmotorsport said:
Looks like the houes have great back gardens, so don't really need the front gardens. Gravel them and park outside the houses?
Problem with that would be that they have no vehicular right of way over the pavement from the car park into the gardens, and several of the parking spaces would go. No point asking the council for a drop kerb, because the council don't own the car park.theguvernor15 said:
The owners of the house complained about a tenant who was being anti-social, making their lives difficult & threatening them, the police couldn't do anything without proof & then asked the landlord to have a word with their tenant, the landlord didn't do anything about the problem tenant, but thought that stopping the house owners parking there would somehow solve the issue, instead of just having a word with their tenant.
Are you 100% sure that the freeholder of the flats is the same as the landlord of the problem tenant? Housing association, or...?Unless they are, then there's nothing that can be done by the freeholder. The landlord can simply give notice.
theguvernor15 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
There's about 20 parking spaces - how many flats?
11, but only 5/6 of the flats have cars.So there is going to be a lot of free spaces, which (to me would make sense) to just lease or rent to a house holder?!
theguvernor15 said:
cbmotorsport said:
Looks like the houes have great back gardens, so don't really need the front gardens. Gravel them and park outside the houses?
Problem with that would be that they have no vehicular right of way over the pavement from the car park into the gardens, and several of the parking spaces would go. No point asking the council for a drop kerb, because the council don't own the car park.I think you need to get a more expert opinion on this.
You'll need to look into the original contracts and deeds when that land was originally sold for the flats.
It seems absurd that land would be sold in such a way as to potentially leads to loss of access to property.
How were the houses accessed before the apartments were built?
IANAL, but isn't there some law about usage precendece? I.e if they've been using the land for 10 uninterupted years for a purpose, they gain right to continue doing so?
You'll need to look into the original contracts and deeds when that land was originally sold for the flats.
It seems absurd that land would be sold in such a way as to potentially leads to loss of access to property.
How were the houses accessed before the apartments were built?
IANAL, but isn't there some law about usage precendece? I.e if they've been using the land for 10 uninterupted years for a purpose, they gain right to continue doing so?
KevinCamaroSS said:
Where did they park before the flats were built? Was there a road there?
This, what was the access and parking arrangement for each of the houses before the flats were built. What is in the MiL's deeds regarding rights of access to the front of their property because regardless of what the developer has built, they would know about any changes in those rights. Just because the developer owns the road doesn't mean that automatically overturns any established rights of access.randlemarcus said:
You seem to have forgotten the bit where you describe the legal action the houses are taking against the developer. Not sure the fact that they have been allowed to park there counts as a legal right to continue though. Their offer of 1 permit per household on land the houses don't own seem reasonable to me. Presumably this will impact their property values, unless the description is quite slick,
It seems a logical solution for the property developer, he can now advertise his flats with allocated parking, he hopes the neighboor will stop parking uninsured vehicles in the spaces when he gets parking tickets and the local residents can no longer complain about the uninsured vehicles and lack of parking.Sorry i have some further information that i didn't have before having spoken with the gf.
The landowner has offered one parking permit per house, the homeowners are happy with this, however they are asking for a period of validity to it in a contract before they agree, for instance, they don't want to agree to the terms, drop the legal action, only for them to be allowed it only for say 6 month, thus rendering their homes un-sellable or losing value, in 6 months. or just not plainly being able to park there in future.
Given that they were all told in writing, nobody would be ticketed until the1st Feb & all the home owners being ticketed today, it has backed up their theory that they don't trust the land owner!
Does that make sense?
The drop from the carpark to the front of the first step houses is almost shoulder height as it is.
I gather this was an option that was looked at but the landowner didn't want to agree to this.
The landowner has offered one parking permit per house, the homeowners are happy with this, however they are asking for a period of validity to it in a contract before they agree, for instance, they don't want to agree to the terms, drop the legal action, only for them to be allowed it only for say 6 month, thus rendering their homes un-sellable or losing value, in 6 months. or just not plainly being able to park there in future.
Given that they were all told in writing, nobody would be ticketed until the1st Feb & all the home owners being ticketed today, it has backed up their theory that they don't trust the land owner!
Does that make sense?
The drop from the carpark to the front of the first step houses is almost shoulder height as it is.
I gather this was an option that was looked at but the landowner didn't want to agree to this.
Edited by theguvernor15 on Thursday 19th January 18:03
Edited by theguvernor15 on Thursday 19th January 18:06
The Surveyor said:
This, what was the access and parking arrangement for each of the houses before the flats were built. What is in the MiL's deeds regarding rights of access to the front of their property because regardless of what the developer has built, they would know about any changes in those rights. Just because the developer owns the road doesn't mean that automatically overturns any established rights of access.
The car park portion of land was always there, where the flats was, was just land before hand.The flats are probably a good 15m higher up, if not more than the houses on the other side.
Looking at it from the ground makes it seem all the more unfair on the house owners.
Haslam Court
As the land is clearly historically parking for the houses, what chance a sort of 'squatters rights'?
Haslam Court
As the land is clearly historically parking for the houses, what chance a sort of 'squatters rights'?
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom...
The later maps show the houses there, but no parking except the road itself, so presumably the dreadful car park was part of the planning for the flats.
The later maps show the houses there, but no parking except the road itself, so presumably the dreadful car park was part of the planning for the flats.
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