Parking fine @ a supermarket carpark - enforceable?

[Sheepshanks]

Martyn76 said:

No pics yet, I haven;t spoken to them in a couple of days so not sure if they have been back to check the signage, etc

If they're quite old they've probably just paid it. Old people can't be done with hassle.

[Martyn76]

Sheepshanks said:

If they're quite old they've probably just paid it. Old people can't be done with hassle.

They're both in their late 70's and I think the thought has crossed by dads mind, just for a peaceful life, they can afford the (reduced) fine but that's not the point.

I have passed on the Pepipoo (?) website and this thread to my dad.

[Chrisgr31]

Countdown said:

Thanks for clarifying. We also have a "fleet" (about 50) but, as they work directly for us, it's fairly easy to make sure they comply with parking regs.

And of course if all drivers complied with drivers regs we wouldnt have these issues in the first place.

People wouldn't park in someones drive whilst they went to do their shopping, the doctors surgery etc so why is it acceptable to many to many to park in a business location?

[S11Steve]

Sheepshanks said:

Do fleet suppliers normally deal with stuff in the way you're doing? In my experience they pay up and send the bill plus an admin charge. We used to get miffed about it as we were presented with a fait accompli and the admin change was always felt to be OTT.

It varies, we pay local authority and congestion charges and rebill with a £15 admin fee. We struggle to transfer liability on these mainly due to the contact method we use, and that we don't have individual driver details. Private parking, Dart charges and endorseable offences we transfer liability to the corporate customer.
We have two full time employees processing the fines, so it is a tangible and demonstrable cost to the business. We also have to absorb some costs of enforcement.

[spikyone]

Chrisgr31 said:

Countdown said:

Thanks for clarifying. We also have a "fleet" (about 50) but, as they work directly for us, it's fairly easy to make sure they comply with parking regs.

And of course if all drivers complied with drivers regs we wouldnt have these issues in the first place.

People wouldn't park in someones drive whilst they went to do their shopping, the doctors surgery etc so why is it acceptable to many to many to park in a business location?

I'm sure you've never made a mistake in your life, that the people who get tickets are always deliberately abusing facilities, and that all of the private parking tickets that are issued are issued correctly at sites with perfectly clear terms and conditions.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, most private parking companies only make money by "fining" people. Which leads to dodgy practices like poor signage, doctored photos, and ANPR systems that record two separate visits as one long visit - to name but a few. Much of the industry is made up of the assorted thugs and heavies that used to clamp first and threaten later before it was (rightly) banned.
Now, in some locations, there may be a genuine problem that leads to businesses employing private parking management companies. But if those businesses have a genuine problem, there are far more effective ways of managing it that don't require the issuing of parking tickets. Bristol Eye Hospital, for instance, operates a pay on exit system that does not involve "fining" drivers. It would be very easy for companies like Lidl to use this in combination with a token given to genuine customers at the checkouts, which gave the equivalent of 90 minutes free parking. And it would do far less damage to Lidl's reputation.

[anonymous-user]

Martyn76 said:

Hi all,

Looking for some advice and knowledge.

About a week ago my parents went to a local Lidl to buy a specific item, it wasn't in stock so they bought some general items paid and left,

The letter (charge notice I think they titled it) is from a private firm called Athena ANPR who operate for Lidl at various Lidl car parks around the country, apparently what you had to do it scan your receipt at a "machine" in the car park to qualify your visit, my parents didn't know anything about this, they weren't informed at the till so didn't know to scan the receipt,

spikyone said:

It would be very easy for companies like Lidl to use this in combination with a token given to genuine customers at the checkouts, which gave the equivalent of 90 minutes free parking. And it would do far less damage to Lidl's reputation.

That wouldn't work in many situations as in the one above. I've just had a mooch round Aldi (I know chavvy) and didn't buy anything, on their system I could just input reg instore without purchasing (in some of the chavvy/bad parking areas that is a requirement of using the car park)

spikyone said:

But if those businesses have a genuine problem, there are far more effective ways of managing it that don't require the issuing of parking tickets. Bristol Eye Hospital, for instance, operates a pay on exit system that does not involve "fining" drivers.

Different businesses have different problems and solutions, why should a business (or private landowner) incur costs due to the ignorant and feckless better to inconvenience those as shown in recent press articles.

[Countdown]

spikyone said:

<snip>Now, in some locations, there may be a genuine problem that leads to businesses employing private parking management companies. But if those businesses have a genuine problem, there are far more effective ways of managing it that don't require the issuing of parking tickets. Bristol Eye Hospital, for instance, operates a pay on exit system that does not involve "fining" drivers. It would be very easy for companies like Lidl to use this in combination with a token given to genuine customers at the checkouts, which gave the equivalent of 90 minutes free parking. And it would do far less damage to Lidl's reputation.<snip>

You forgot to mention that there are a percentage of people who are, for want of a better word, complete twunts. They will park wherever they want and moan like billy-o when penalised and suggest it's everybody else's fault apart from their own. It's either because they're too tight or too lazy, the same kind of people who park in Disbaled spaces or P&C because they have a sense of entitlement.

I don't disagree that some signage can be hard to understand or misleading. However the number of people who seem to get caught out by it is surprising.

[Sheepshanks]

S11Steve said:

Private parking.........we transfer liability to the corporate customer.

But you appear to fighting the private parking companies yourself?

[spikyone]

speedyguy said:

Martyn76 said:

Hi all,

Looking for some advice and knowledge.

About a week ago my parents went to a local Lidl to buy a specific item, it wasn't in stock so they bought some general items paid and left,

The letter (charge notice I think they titled it) is from a private firm called Athena ANPR who operate for Lidl at various Lidl car parks around the country, apparently what you had to do it scan your receipt at a "machine" in the car park to qualify your visit, my parents didn't know anything about this, they weren't informed at the till so didn't know to scan the receipt,

spikyone said:

It would be very easy for companies like Lidl to use this in combination with a token given to genuine customers at the checkouts, which gave the equivalent of 90 minutes free parking. And it would do far less damage to Lidl's reputation.

That wouldn't work in many situations as in the one above. I've just had a mooch round Aldi (I know chavvy) and didn't buy anything, on their system I could just input reg instore without purchasing (in some of the chavvy/bad parking areas that is a requirement of using the car park)

How does that show the system I suggested wouldn't work? OP's parents would've got a token allowing them free parking, and no parking "fine". You would've had to pay a small fee to park as you didn't buy anything in store. What's the downside here?

speedyguy said:

spikyone said:

But if those businesses have a genuine problem, there are far more effective ways of managing it that don't require the issuing of parking tickets. Bristol Eye Hospital, for instance, operates a pay on exit system that does not involve "fining" drivers.

Different businesses have different problems and solutions, why should a business (or private landowner) incur costs due to the ignorant and feckless better to inconvenience those as shown in recent press articles.

If a business or landowner wants to offer parking to its customers, then of course it's the responsibility of the business to protect that. By your logic, why should homeowners pay for door locks and security systems simply because there are a few thieving morons who would otherwise break in?
The use of a pay on exit system, or amortising the costs into the businesses profit, means the actual cost to most businesses that have a genuine need to manage parking is negligible. And what about the cost that Lidl and others are incurring, both in dealing with irate customers who've been unfairly charged by the likes of Athena, and also from the fact that many of those irate customers will shop elsewhere in future?

Countdown said:

<snip>
You forgot to mention that there are a percentage of people who are, for want of a better word, complete twunts. <snip>

I don't deny the existence of such people. But my post was in a reply to someone else's suggestion that if you get a ticket it's can only be because you were a twunt, which I was rebutting. A quick search of SP&L, or the MSE and Pepipoo forums, will show that large numbers of people are being hit with "fines" despite doing little wrong, or because systems are unclear or confusing (such as the one the OP describes). And I don't believe for one second the notion that there would be parking chaos without private parking companies. Such companies are virtually unique to the UK, and there is certainly no parking chaos on private land in the rest of Europe.

I am not for one second advocating "park where you like and bks to everyone", I am simply observing that there are far better solutions than an entirely unregulated industry whose entire profit base comes from catching people out.

[HTP99]

This happened to my wife last year at Aldi, she didn't realise that she had to enter her reg. number on a keypad when exiting the store, a couple of weeks later a "fine" arrived in the post.

I contacted Aldi by e-mail, explained the situation, they asked for a receipt; by then it had been thrown away, they asked for a bank statement showing that a purchase had been made on the day, unfortunately it was a Saturday and a transaction doesn't show until the Monday, I sent a copy of the bank statement, explaining that weekend transactions don't show till the Monday, Aldi cancelled the "fine".

It was all cleared up in 2 days.

I didn't go on an forum asking for advice either, I did it all by myself!

[bad company]

HTP99 said:

This happened to my wife last year at Aldi, she didn't realise that she had to enter her reg. number on a keypad when exiting the store, a couple of weeks later a "fine" arrived in the post.

I contacted Aldi by e-mail, explained the situation, they asked for a receipt; by then it had been thrown away, they asked for a bank statement showing that a purchase had been made on the day, unfortunately it was a Saturday and a transaction doesn't show until the Monday, I sent a copy of the bank statement, explaining that weekend transactions don't show till the Monday, Aldi cancelled the "fine".

It was all cleared up in 2 days.

I didn't go on an forum asking for advice either, I did it all by myself!

I did similar for my mum when she got a 'ticket' at Aldi in Poole. The trouble is she is 86 and would find a keypad confusing.

Edited by bad company on Thursday 26th January 10:43

[S11Steve]

Sheepshanks said:

S11Steve said:

Private parking.........we transfer liability to the corporate customer.

But you appear to fighting the private parking companies yourself?

To a degree, yes, because the PPC just want their £100 and really do not want to start chasing through a chain of contracts to get to the driver. They think it is easier to pressurise the RK into payment, but this RK pushes back.

The BPA companies in general have eased off a bit and accept our liability transfers, and one has even got to the point where, according to somebody at the BPA, when they see our company name as RK, they just cancel the charge

Happy days.

[paolo111]

I have received a parking notice from Athena for shopping at LIDL Leatherhead for 40 minutes. It says "ALLOWED DURATION OF STAY 10 MINUTES", adding "shoppers entering reg at the till are allowed 90 minutes". The till assistant didn't ask me for my registration number or say anything of this. Luckily I paid by credit card so have proof that I shopped there. I live a fair distance from that store but will, wearily, go there, although there is nobody there but a few overworked shelf stackers and till staff so getting their attention will be very hard. The till assistant surely should ask each and every shopper if they parked there and for their registration - HOW WAS I TO KNOW ? I don't read dufusy signs in car parks because I know that you always get an hour or an hour and a half, like you do in Lidl Dorking (my more usual Lidl) or Lidl Chessington (my other one), and they don't have this "10 minutes unless you enter your reg at the till p.s. till attendant won't tell you" nonsense. I think this is an OK system AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS YOU. Lidl Leatherhead is rather close to town so by all means protect it for customers but that is only OK AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS EVERY SINGLE SHOPPER or how are people to know. I am very annoyed at this. Lucky I paid by card but I've almost no chance of finding a manager at that store so am pessimistic and stressed now. I could do without this.

[bad company]

paolo111 said:

I have received a parking notice from Athena for shopping at LIDL Leatherhead for 40 minutes. It says "ALLOWED DURATION OF STAY 10 MINUTES", adding "shoppers entering reg at the till are allowed 90 minutes". The till assistant didn't ask me for my registration number or say anything of this. Luckily I paid by credit card so have proof that I shopped there. I live a fair distance from that store but will, wearily, go there, although there is nobody there but a few overworked shelf stackers and till staff so getting their attention will be very hard. The till assistant surely should ask each and every shopper if they parked there and for their registration - HOW WAS I TO KNOW ? I don't read dufusy signs in car parks because I know that you always get an hour or an hour and a half, like you do in Lidl Dorking (my more usual Lidl) or Lidl Chessington (my other one), and they don't have this "10 minutes unless you enter your reg at the till p.s. till attendant won't tell you" nonsense. I think this is an OK system AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS YOU. Lidl Leatherhead is rather close to town so by all means protect it for customers but that is only OK AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS EVERY SINGLE SHOPPER or how are people to know. I am very annoyed at this. Lucky I paid by card but I've almost no chance of finding a manager at that store so am pessimistic and stressed now. I could do without this.

I dealt with a similar situation for my mum albeit with Aldi. One phone call to their head office sorted it. They had an agent specifically dealing with parking charges.

[Red Devil]

bad company said:

paolo111 said:

I have received a parking notice from Athena for shopping at LIDL Leatherhead for 40 minutes. It says "ALLOWED DURATION OF STAY 10 MINUTES", adding "shoppers entering reg at the till are allowed 90 minutes". The till assistant didn't ask me for my registration number or say anything of this. Luckily I paid by credit card so have proof that I shopped there. I live a fair distance from that store but will, wearily, go there, although there is nobody there but a few overworked shelf stackers and till staff so getting their attention will be very hard. The till assistant surely should ask each and every shopper if they parked there and for their registration - HOW WAS I TO KNOW ? I don't read dufusy signs in car parks because I know that you always get an hour or an hour and a half, like you do in Lidl Dorking (my more usual Lidl) or Lidl Chessington (my other one), and they don't have this "10 minutes unless you enter your reg at the till p.s. till attendant won't tell you" nonsense. I think this is an OK system AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS YOU. Lidl Leatherhead is rather close to town so by all means protect it for customers but that is only OK AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS EVERY SINGLE SHOPPER or how are people to know. I am very annoyed at this. Lucky I paid by card but I've almost no chance of finding a manager at that store so am pessimistic and stressed now. I could do without this.

I dealt with a similar situation for my mum albeit with Aldi. One phone call to their head office sorted it. They had an agent specifically dealing with parking charges.

Aldi and Lidl are both German owned enterprises. The latter has a particularly unsavoury reputation for certain controversial activities.
That it has implemented such a system quite possibly in conjunction with non-compliant signage by its preferred PPC doesn't surprise me in the least.
There can be a definite downside to bargain basement prices in store...

[anonymous-user]

paolo111 said:

I don't read dufusy signs in car parks because I know that you always get an hour or an hour and a half, like you do in Lidl Dorking (my more usual Lidl) or Lidl Chessington (my other one), and they don't have this "10 minutes unless you enter your reg at the till p.s. till attendant won't tell you" nonsense. I think this is an OK system AS LONG AS THE TILL ATTENDANT TELLS YOU.

Now you know different will you read the dufusy signs in future or continue to be a dufus ?

When I park it takes a few seconds to check for signage and restrictions unless you are a dufus.
In the odd Aldi I go in (and other places) it is quite clear on dozens of notices to enter your registration on a keypad in the store, they've probably only got these systems in place because dufuses took the pish.

[Red Devil]

Quoting your experience at the 'odd Aldi' you visit, when the poster was talking about Lidl doesn't compute.
An example of the problem. No mention whatsoever on the sign of the requirement to register your VRM.

It is the signage visible at the time of parking which forms the contract, not subsequently at the checkout.*
I believe it would therefore be unenforceable.

 * For example, you might well pop in for some items, find they are sold out or not in stock and leave without needing to go through it.
    The 10 minute rule is measured by the ANPR so starts/ends when you enter /leave the car park, not when you find a free space.
    That's a very short time span even for someone fit and healthy: for one who is elderly and frail it's a trap.

[Riley Blue]

I find it difficult to believe that anyone who parks where they know restrictions are in force, be it on the street, in a supermarket car park or elsewhere, wouldn't read what those restrictions were before leaving their car. Why don't people do that?

[pavarotti1980]

Red Devil said:

Quoting your experience at the 'odd Aldi' you visit, when the poster was talking about Lidl doesn't compute.
An example of the problem. No mention whatsoever on the sign of the requirement to register your VRM.

It is the signage visible at the time of parking which forms the contract, not subsequently at the checkout.*
I believe it would therefore be unenforceable.

 * For example, you might well pop in for some items, find they are sold out or not in stock and leave without needing to go through it.
    The 10 minute rule is measured by the ANPR so starts/ends when you enter /leave the car park, not when you find a free space.
    That's a very short time span even for someone fit and healthy: for one who is elderly and frail it's a trap.

In addition to the fact the sign does not contain relevant information to be able to form a contract. The most striking omission is the fact that there isnt an address for Athena which is the basic principle of forming a contract in this situation.

[anonymous-user]

Red Devil said:

Quoting your experience at the 'odd Aldi' you visit, when the poster was talking about Lidl doesn't compute.
An example of the problem. No mention whatsoever on the sign of the requirement to register your VRM.

It is the signage visible at the time of parking which forms the contract, not subsequently at the checkout.*
I believe it would therefore be unenforceable.

 * For example, you might well pop in for some items, find they are sold out or not in stock and leave without needing to go through it.
    The 10 minute rule is measured by the ANPR so starts/ends when you enter /leave the car park, not when you find a free space.
    That's a very short time span even for someone fit and healthy: for one who is elderly and frail it's a trap.

Sorry you are the one who brought Aldi into the mix ? Quite rightly too as they operate similar systems on various sites.

Red Devil said:

Aldi and Lidl are both German owned enterprises. The latter has a particularly unsavoury reputation for certain controversial activities.

That pic proves nothing about keypads, maybe it is one of the stores where keypad input isn't required as the store location leads to less abuse so it is not necessary for keypad details, the people who generally don't key in behind the tills (because they haven't purchased ) are those who go in the car park and go elsewhere?